Author Topic: YoutTube  (Read 1855 times)

KnuckleBuckett

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YoutTube
« on: March 20, 2009, 04:17:14 PM »
Opinions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA

Seems pretty reasonable to me. 

charlie

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 06:13:47 PM »
Seems pretty reasonable to me. 

(Sorry about the big post... I did a little running list of thoughts and didn't realize it would be so long and full of different things.)

Most of the ideas are pretty reasonable:

  • 2:50 - Repeal right for congress to vote for their own raises - Reasonable, as long as you put in some other mechanism for providing cost of living increases.
  • 2:53 - Balance the Federal Budget - I agree. That should be the ultimate goal (I was very pleased when there were surpluses at the end of the 90's). I don't think it's wise to do it now in the current state of the economy, but that should be the ultimate goal.
  • 3:17 - Term limits - Reasonable request. I'm not sure I'm for or against them, but it's reasonable.
  • 3:52 - Increased pay and benefits for military - Certainly agree with that.
  • 4:00 - Start no war unless you intend to win it - Makes sense. Don't think anybody has every done anything different here in the U.S.A, though.
  • 4:03 - English as official language - Reasonable, but I'd say it works fine now. I don't want to live in a melting pot, I want to live in a salad bowl.
  • 4:12 - No taxpayer money for illegal aliens - I guess this is reasonable (although hopefully intentional hyperbole). I'm generally against most benefits for illegal aliens, but If it costs me a few pennies to save a human being's life even if that human is here illegally then I'm ok with it. I'm ok with medical services for prisoners, too. Is there a difference?
  • 4:19 - Abolish the electoral college - I've actually started leaning towards keeping the electoral college, although I wouldn't be sad to see it go the either way. The idea that because the electoral college exists the people aren't the ones that elect the president isn't very reasonable, though.
  • 4:24 - Universal service - I like this idea. I'm not sure it needs to be mandatory, but I like the idea in general.

Unfortunately, the tone and many of the claims are not reasonable in my opinion.

  • 0:02 - Not a good start. Nobody would have been run out of the country on a rail or tarred and feathered for Holder's comments or equivalent ones.
  • 0:25 - The complaint about congress not reading the stimulus bill is way overblown.
  • 0:38 - "$300 billion to illegal alien welfare"? How is that a reasonable statement?
  • 1:00 - Many of the things he is saying "they ignore you" about are supported by the majority of Americans. I don't think it's reasonable to say "they ignore you" as if it is a bad thing when the "you" he's talking about is the minority (and I don't think that "you" is being ignored, they just aren't getting their way).
  • 1:22 - I like the idea of making your voice heard. That's reasonable. No reason to be mad as hell about it though.
  • 2:05 - There aren't 3 million people marching and revolting because the number of people who agree with this are pretty small.
  • 2:15 - Failed government? Yeah, sorry, I don't think that's reasonable at all. Our government is very far from being perfect, but it does a pretty darn good job.
  • 2:45 - What laws apply to us that don't apply to Congress?
  • 3:02 - Make Congress pay into the social security system - Congress does pay into the social security fund.
  • 3:23 - Congress receives their full salary for the rest of their lives - That's not true either.
  • 3:44 - Throwing out everybody in congress will just bring in a bunch of people who do the same stuff (only they will make more mistakes when they do it). New blood is not a bad idea in general but there are also downsides.

The final conclusion seems misguided and incongruent. Misguided because it posits that the country is in some sort of great decline and can no longer do all these things that it has done before. I don't see how you can reasonably make that argument. Other than a larger than ever deficit, I see nothing to indicate we are really worse off let alone in some sort of tremendous decline.

Incongruent because it asks for the small and reasonable (if odd) solution of speaking up through sending teabags to Congress and the President, but claims that this is the start of the second American revolution and rants about how angry we should be.

A citizen has every right to be angry about what their government is doing, but I personally don't think that anger is reasonable here. In my opinion, a loud and rational voice expressing many of the concerns above would be far superior to something like this video that distracts from legitimate ideas with false claims and irrational anger.

Just my opinion. ;)

Mike

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 06:56:23 PM »
    I only watched like the first minute and half.  Too much drama.
2:50 - Repeal right for congress to vote for their own raises - Reasonable, as long as you put in some other mechanism for providing cost of living increases.
Not sure about this.  If we'd left it up to the people than they'd never get a COL increase.  I know that congressional pay isn't a flat system and perhaps it should be?

Quote
3:17 - Term limits - Reasonable request. I'm not sure I'm for or against them, but it's reasonable.
Term limits have their merits (allows for new blood) and some downsides (if the person is doing a good job and the people agree what is wrong with keeping them)?

Quote
3:52 - Increased pay and benefits for military - Certainly agree with that.
I've always believed you can never spend enough on the military and on education.  Rather than pay/benefit increases I would much rather see an increase in modernizing equipment and making sure that the military has what they need.

Quote
4:00 - Start no war unless you intend to win it - Makes sense. Don't think anybody has every done anything different here in the U.S.A, though.
I have to agree that we've only engaged in battles that we thought we could win.  Sometimes arrogance has us over estimating our ability to win.  And it really should be realized by now that you can't defeat an idea with force of arms.

Quote
4:03 - English as official language - Reasonable, but I'd say it works fine now. I don't want to live in a melting pot, I want to live in a salad bowl.
Never got this idea.  What is wrong with providing services to our citizens in languages they can understand easier?  As long as English is still available I don't see a problem with allowing other languages to be used.

Quote
4:12 - No taxpayer money for illegal aliens - I guess this is reasonable (although hopefully intentional hyperbole). I'm generally against most benefits for illegal aliens, but If it costs me a few pennies to save a human being's life even if that human is here illegally then I'm ok with it. I'm ok with medical services for prisoners, too. Is there a difference?
This is a tough one.  On one hand I agree but there are certain services that should be provided regardless of who you are and where you were born.  If you are injured I would expect a hospital to treat you, just as our doctors will treat enemy soldiers in a time of war.  It should also be realized that for a lot of illegal aliens the only crime they are committing is entering the country illegally.  I wouldn't be surprised if the majority work hard and actually help the economy.  As the joke goes:  Do you want to pick that cabbage?

Quote
4:19 - Abolish the electoral college - I've actually started leaning towards keeping the electoral college, although I wouldn't be sad to see it go the either way. The idea that because the electoral college exists the people aren't the ones that elect the president isn't very reasonable, though.
I think we are fine with or without it.  It is pretty rare that the college doesn't reflect the majority vote.

Quote
4:24 - Universal service - I like this idea. I'm not sure it needs to be mandatory, but I like the idea in general.
What was this?  Something like you have enlist in the military, peace corps, or some other service related organization?


The thing about the whole "you told/ask them to do XYZ and they didn't".  Part of being a leader is ignoring what the majority wants and instead doing the right thing.  One of the things that really helps our country is that we aren't a direct democracy.  We've got a lot of republic structure that helps us from having the majority tyrannizing the minority.[/list]

charlie

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 07:11:52 PM »
I've always believed you can never spend enough on the military and on education.  Rather than pay/benefit increases I would much rather see an increase in modernizing equipment and making sure that the military has what they need.

Absolutely. Maybe not building up to an arms race, but I'd be happy to give up more of my money in the form of taxes to properly fund the military and give teachers a good salary.

Quote
4:24 - Universal service - I like this idea. I'm not sure it needs to be mandatory, but I like the idea in general.
What was this?  Something like you have enlist in the military, peace corps, or some other service related organization?

Yeah. I think he was asking for it to be mandatory, but I'm fine with Obama's proposals of paying for college as an incentive and see what we need to do from there.

The thing about the whole "you told/ask them to do XYZ and they didn't".  Part of being a leader is ignoring what the majority wants and instead doing the right thing.  One of the things that really helps our country is that we aren't a direct democracy.  We've got a lot of republic structure that helps us from having the majority tyrannizing the minority.

Yeah, and the funny part is that a lot of things he was complaining about the politicians ignoring "us" on are things the public actually supports. So it's the government "ignoring" the minority in that case.

VBprogrammer

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2009, 04:37:20 PM »
Ah, a little part of me just died watching that.

Quote
3:52 - Increased pay and benefits for military - Certainly agree with that.
I've always believed you can never spend enough on the military and on education.  Rather than pay/benefit increases I would much rather see an increase in modernizing equipment and making sure that the military has what they need.

You guys really believe that? I respect you guys a lot but seriously I just don't understand the who pro-military thing, it runs so counter to anything I believe. While I realize the need to maintain a defensive force I see no benefit from the military above that.

Mike

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2009, 04:51:27 PM »
Think of it more like this:  Can you truly pay a person enough for putting the life on the line to defend their country?  Can you ever have the perfect equipment?  I don't think you can which is why I say you can never spend enough on military.

I also believe there is a difference between having a strong military and using it for aggressive purposes.  Using the military to protect allies, distribute aid, and even research technologies area all acceptable uses in my book.

Oh and the UK has had a non-defensive force for a long time.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 05:01:58 PM by Mike »

Mike

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2009, 04:56:03 PM »
Oh and just to be clear:  Just because I don't think we can spend enough on military and education doesn't mean that I believe that other areas need cuts.  In the end it has to be a balancing act.

charlie

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2009, 04:59:44 PM »
Yeah, like I said earlier, it's not about arms races. It's about compensating people for not only putting their lives on the line for their country, but also the many other sacrifices they and their families make.

I lean much more towards being dovish than hawkish, but if we're going to put people at risk we better do whatever we can to thank them and protect them.

VBprogrammer

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2009, 06:21:24 PM »
Think of it more like this:  Can you truly pay a person enough for putting the life on the line to defend their country? 

I didn't force them to put their life on the line. They are not putting their life on the line for my country unless my country is under threat. Which, well it isn't.

Can you ever have the perfect equipment? 

No, so why throw money at trying to get there?

I also believe there is a difference between having a strong military and using it for aggressive purposes.  Using the military to protect allies, distribute aid, and even research technologies area all acceptable uses in my book.

Eventually someone with all the power will use it in an aggressive way.

Oh and the UK has had a non-defensive force for a long time.

Doesn't mean I have to like it.

charlie

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2009, 07:08:19 PM »
Think of it more like this:  Can you truly pay a person enough for putting the life on the line to defend their country? 

I didn't force them to put their life on the line. They are not putting their life on the line for my country unless my country is under threat. Which, well it isn't.

They're there to be ready in case your country is under threat. If you want to promise that only those who see active duty get perks, then I guess that would be fine.

Can you ever have the perfect equipment?

No, so why throw money at trying to get there?

:eek: We'll never have body armor that can prevent a missile from killing someone, so why bother trying to make body armor that protects people against bullets? Spending money on better tools to reduce the costs of war is a noble goal. We can argue about whether some specific expenditures are unworthy but that's beside the point.

I also believe there is a difference between having a strong military and using it for aggressive purposes.  Using the military to protect allies, distribute aid, and even research technologies area all acceptable uses in my book.

Eventually someone with all the power will use it in an aggressive way.

So it's better to ignore the rest of the benefits? You realize that it will be a long time before the world is rid of people with power using force for their own gains, right? So in the meantime it would seem smart to be able to defend oneself against those people. It is unfortunate (yes, that's an understatement) that people use military force in an aggressive way in our name, but the solution is to take steps to ensure that doesn't happen, not get rid of the entire military system.

charlie

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2009, 05:10:07 PM »
This teabagging idea is apparently gaining steam and making news, so I thought I'd bring it back up.

Any comments from those who support the idea?

KB, you say it sounds reasonable. I wonder if you accept that there are factual inaccuracies and exaggerations but think the message is still on point, or if you think the whole thing is really spot on.

KnuckleBuckett

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2009, 06:04:55 PM »
Message is definitely on point.


charlie

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Re: YoutTube
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2009, 06:23:03 PM »
Don't the exaggerated claims bother you? I appreciate the fact that a lot of the stuff in there speaks directly to your personal philosophies on government, but I would be bothered if the rationale provided was based on what amount to scare tactics and inciting of anger.

The opinions there could actually be based on the inaccuracies, or the inaccuracies could be being used to promote the opinions. Either way that is not a good thing.

I very much like the idea of a level-headed discussion of many of the ideas presented, but it is difficult to get past the tone with which they are.