EntropySink
Entertainment & Artistry => Sports/Outdoors & Manpoon => Topic started by: KnuckleBuckett on March 06, 2012, 06:24:27 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/05/sport/nfl-bounty-scandal/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
This cannot be good.
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Maybe I'm a bad fan, but I don't have a huge issue with this. I'm also sure that the Saints are far from the only team that does this
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It wasn't just the one team, although so far it's all being linked to Williams.
And I do have a problem with it, at least the part about giving money for injuring other players. As a fan I want to see the best guys playing every week. I hate injuries on any team. So I certainly don't want to see guys being incentivized to injure others.
Not that I think Williams or the players are horrible people or anything, I can totally see this situation happening without any major ill intents. But I hope the NFL does a full investigation and puts a stop to it as much as possible.
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I'm so embarrassed. I'm also done with Greg Williams. I know how the Saints run things and that Williams was pretty autonomous, but still - if higher ups knew about it...and they did...
I know it's part of the game, and that many other teams do it, but it's different when the coach administers it. You're paying people to intentionally harm others beyond the scope of the game. That's not okay.
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I'll be honest, my lack of outrage on this is mostly because the top target appeared to be Brett Favre and fuck him
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:+1:
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Understanding that football is a violent sport on purpose, I still have an issue with such a flagrant pay to maim policy. This is probably not limited to NFL. I expect most pro sports have this kind of thing going on.
I hope the driving sports are staying clear of this though. Think they are?
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Would you guys have a big problem if the coach was just telling the players to injure someone but not giving them bounties?
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Would you guys have a big problem if the coach was just telling the players to injure someone but not giving them bounties?
Yes, I'd have the same problem with that as I have with this.
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I hope the driving sports are staying clear of this though. Think they are?
I don't know if they'd have actual monetary incentives, but it's likely in my opinion that some drivers have large incentives to crash others, especially in driving sports that use teams significantly.
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That's fine, at least you're being consistent. I bring it up because the fact that they're getting a tiny percentage of their pay for these hits seems to be a big deal.
The NFL has such a fuzzy line between being a super intense player that is just being very aggressive and stuff like this.
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That's fine, at least you're being consistent. I bring it up because the fact that they're getting a tiny percentage of their pay for these hits seems to be a big deal.
The NFL has such a fuzzy line between being a super intense player that is just being very aggressive and stuff like this.
I can't speak for others, but I think the problem is that there are two problems. One is that they are being told to injure other players. This is an issue with or without the money, the money is just another way of creating incentive.
The second issue is using the money for any kind of performance, including normal sportsmanlike performance. I think that's where the system started and was mostly used for if you listen to the players. That's ok in spirit and most fans don't care about it, but the NFL doesn't want that kind of stuff going on outside the labor deal and rules on salaries and stuff like that. So really, fans don't care about that, but the NFL wants to put a stop to it.
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> So really, fans don't care about that, but the NFL wants to put a stop to it.
That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of.
I can't wait to see "Receive $25K for breaking a leg" worked into contracts with other performance incentives
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Would you guys have a big problem if the coach was just telling the players to injure someone but not giving them bounties?
Sure would. Incentive or not it is a horrible practice.
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Would you guys have a big problem if the coach was just telling the players to injure someone but not giving them bounties?
Yes...but less so...I know that happens. I actually do have more of a problem once the organization is providing financial incentive for it....Don't pull back the veil and remind me that I'm in love with a blood sport....
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Search your heart, you know it to be true
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I know, but I like to pretend...
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http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/21/nfl-suspends-saints-coach-ex-coordinator-over-bounty-program/?hpt=hp_t1
Wow, that was way more than I expected.
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Wow that was harsh considering you know it is happening on a lot of teams.
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Right and I'm sure Goodell knows it, but the league has to step up and remove any doubt that it's accepted. I think he made his point.
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I know everyone keeps saying that all the teams do it and its been around forever, but is that really true? is there any proof? It seems like if this HAS been going on, this punishment is the NFL's way of saying its stops now.
Honestly, I think these are appropriate punishments. As a fan, I get that its a player's job to physically break down their opponent, but this act of targeted attacks, with full intent of causing injuring, is sadistic and really disgusts me - especially since there was a financial reward.
If I were a player injured by a team that is known to practice this incentive program, I would press for criminal assault charges.
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The only proof of it would be hearsay and there have been quite a few players coming out and saying that it happened. In my mind, it's the same as PED use in sports. There's not going to be a lot of hard proof, but that doesn't mean it's not happening
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Whoa... holy shit. Payton suspended for a year?
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The only proof of it would be hearsay and there have been quite a few players coming out and saying that it happened. In my mind, it's the same as PED use in sports. There's not going to be a lot of hard proof, but that doesn't mean it's not happening
I don't think the money incentives are that widespread, and if they are it's at much lower dollar amounts. Being happy to knock important players out of the game is probably widespread, but that's not the reason for these penalties.
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I wonder if Williams will ever coach again. The amount of scrutiny he'll bring to whatever team signs him after his suspension will be huge
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It's a sport where guys hit each other. From the first time you join a team if you are a defensive player it is drilled into you to hit hard, as hard as you can, every time between every whistle.
So instead of just saying that, they said he hit hard like your supposed to and make an extra effort to hit that guy as often as you can as hard as you can. Is it that big of a deal to go the 3/4 of an inch further and tell them you will reward them if certain players can't play? NO.
This isn't golf. If Tiger Woods paid his caddy to break his opponents knee caps I would take issue with it. This is fucking football. The NFL is a bunch of pussy shit these days anyway.
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But when your stars are out injured because you encourage that type of stuff, then where are you?
Would you rather have a league with lots of big hits but not a lot of big time star skill position athletes, or the other way around? I'd rather have the skill position stars playing and it's not even close.
That's enough right there to be against injury bounties without even addressing the fact that there's a big difference between hitting a player hard to injure him, hitting him hard to intimidate him, and hitting him hard to gain an advantage on the play. The last one if perfectly fine, the middle one is a tough question and your arguments would be good for that discussion. The first one is easily wrong.
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It's up to the coaches to plan for injuries, period.
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First - Willams Better be out for more than a year
Second - way to harsh on Peyton
Third - I don't want to talk about it and I'm refusing to read more of this thread for a couple days....
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Oh - and Fuck Goodell
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Oh - and Fuck Goodell
Why? Your DC was the one doing it and your head coach lied to the league about it, I'm not sure how Goodell is at fault. He had to come down hard.
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I lied on 3 days...I'm feeling better this morning...I think the full year on Sean was excessive. I understand the lying, but has no coach ever lied to the league before? This was Goodell being tempermental. 4, 6, 8 games all make sense - even 10 to make it significantly longer than Loomis - but a season (including preseason acquisitions), seems excessive to me.
Putting the franchise at an excessively large competitive disadvantage...
Especially since Williams status will be reviewed at the end of the year - so the 2 could get the same time for very different crimes.
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Payton covered up the bounties and Williams worked for him. A manager should be held responsible for the crimes of his employees - if Payton would have done something about it he could have stopped it, but he didn't and then he covered it up for the league
I really want to know how they're going to enforce the suspension of the GM. Do you take his phone and email away?
edit: I mean obviously Goodell was making an example of Payton, but he sort of had to
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Responsible, yes, but this one is excessive. I agree that Goodell has to make an example, but I think he went over and above...4 games was widely expected, 8-10 would have been an example.
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I don't know, man. You're condoning your players and their superiors in planning to hurt players above and beyond normal play stuff. That stuff could have ended careers, not just removed players from a single game. That's fucked up. Honestly, I wouldn't have thought twice if they told him he couldn't coach again ever in the league. That's a horrible sense of judgement in my opinion.
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I respect what you're saying, but its about how the saints were organized - my nderstanding has always been that Peyton and Williams each had their own side of the building...I realize the buck has to stop with Sean, and that's why 8-10 games wouldn't have surprised me...and I realize that he didn't kill it - again - 8-10 games...but the year?
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Again, the bigger issue isn't that he didn't stop it, but that he lied to the league about it.
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so does this mean everyone will forget about spygate? yay!!!
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so does this mean everyone will forget about spygate? yay!!!
Nope: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/165712/how-do-i-reach-these-kids
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By the way, I hadn't heard the report that Payton lied about it. Is that official? He knew and said he didn't know?
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I'm not sure there's been a quote from Payton on the matter but from the ESPN article
According to the league, Payton ignored instructions from the NFL and Saints ownership to make sure bounties weren't being paid. The league also chastised him for choosing to "falsely deny that the program existed," and for trying to "encourage the false denials by instructing assistants to 'make sure our ducks are in a row.' "
So whether he lied or not, it appears that the league is taking the position that he did. I've seen people claim that he lied about it three times but I don't know where that number comes from
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:thumbsup: Thanks.
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hahaha WHAT
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7846290/new-orleans-saints-mickey-loomis-eavesdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games
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Wow...this is even interesting to the rest of us.
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lmfao it's ok kermi, you can cry
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I'm choosing not to believe this one. Thank you. Have a nice day.
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I'm choosing not to believe this one. Thank you. Have a nice day.
you can ignore reality, but it wont go away
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I'm choosing not to believe this one. Thank you. Have a nice day.
you can ignore reality, but it wont go away
Saints fans have been ignoring reality for a long time
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:rofl2:
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This is true - and at times we're proud of it....I'm actually really skeptical of this one. It's 1 unnamed source about a dramatic headline grabbign incident from before even Katrina, and many football people are saying that they can't imagine that it would have provided any real advantage to the team because of the team spcific verbage used on those kinds of conversations and because even if he did udnerstand, he would have had to act so fast to relay the information down to the field so it could be taken advantage of that it'd be useless.
ESPN started this and even some of their commenters don't believe it....Until there's better proof - I don't believe it.
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ESPN may be evil, but many people have made arguments like that saying the information would have been useless so it must be false, only to find out the accusations were true. The usefulness of the data can only be known once the data is received so why would it stop them from doing it?
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This is true - and at times we're proud of it....I'm actually really skeptical of this one. It's 1 unnamed source about a dramatic headline grabbign incident from before even Katrina, and many football people are saying that they can't imagine that it would have provided any real advantage to the team because of the team spcific verbage used on those kinds of conversations and because even if he did udnerstand, he would have had to act so fast to relay the information down to the field so it could be taken advantage of that it'd be useless.
ESPN started this and even some of their commenters don't believe it....Until there's better proof - I don't believe it.
While it might not help on an individual game you could use it for information gathering.
Now granted "may have been able to" is awfully vague.
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It's a sexy story. Proof isn't necissary. High quality journalism.
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many football people are saying that they can't imagine that it would have provided any real advantage to the team because of the team spcific verbage used on those kinds of conversations and because even if he did udnerstand, he would have had to act so fast to relay the information down to the field so it could be taken advantage of that it'd be useless.
Nobody is saying he did anything with the information that I can tell. So it's not like you need to believe or disbelieve that he'd be able to use it. Obviously there's an implied question as to whether he did, but I haven't seen any accusations other than he listened in.
Problem is that that's a felony, although I guess the statute of limitations probably ran out. Still, Goodell would probably give some stiff penalties just for listening.
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ESPN's commenters are largely fucking idiots, I wouldn't take any solace in their disbelief
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/full-text-of-nflpa-letter-asking-for-re-start-of-bounty-investigation/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/22/nflpa-calls-bounty-probe-unsubstantiated-and-incomplete/
I want my draft picks back.
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Aww