Author Topic: AZ  (Read 20223 times)

charlie

  • Jackass In Charge
  • Posts: 7903
  • Karma: +84/-53
Re: AZ
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2012, 02:47:56 PM »
I specifically said I don't want them gone.  I do want some of them gone, however I see nothing positive coming from some mass deportation silliness.  The USA is vital to their livelihoods and they are in many areas vital to ours.  So address it as such.  Address it in a way that they can become tax paying, citizens under the same laws and constitution that we and our forefathers have. 

It sounds like everybody but RoD is in agreement here. We all support a path to citizenship for some illegal immigrants. So why the annoyance?

ober

  • Ashton Shagger
  • Ass Wipe
  • Posts: 14310
  • Karma: +73/-790
  • mini-ober is taking over
    • Windy Hill Web Solutions
Re: AZ
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2012, 02:53:24 PM »
Ok, do you carry that information with you?  (I know my SSN but most people don't).  Do you consider it reasonable for a person to be detained on the suspicion of being in the country illegally and them not having that information on them?  Until my mom died I didn't know where my birth certificate was.  BTW having a SSN doesn't mean you are a citizen (though I think the SS office associates that information with your number).
I don't carry mine.  I would bet that most people know their SSN though (hell I even know my wife's).  It's hard not to know it once you get past the age of 18 because it's used for so many things.

And yes I realize having a SSN doesn't mean you're a citizen necessarily.  If someone were to come to me on the street and ask me to prove my citizenship, I'm not sure what I'd do.

kermi3

  • ?
  • Ass Wipe
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +56/-22
Re: AZ
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2012, 03:45:49 PM »
It was more annoyance than hostility.  I maintain that law has no viable place in this is crazy.

The law should be represent (for the lack of a better term) our beliefs in what is fair and just.  Murder isn't wrong because it is illegal, it is illegal because it is wrong.

Quote
A person who comes here as a child was either intentionally brought here by their parent(s) or came intentionally (slave labor aside) themselves.  The parent or the child, maybe both, knew very well that they were entering illegally and that there are both positive and negative repercussions of their actions.
The problem is that in our system of justice we don't hold children accountable for the actions of their parents.  A 6 year old might know they are entering the country illegally but doesn't know the full weight of it.  An infant doesn't know it at all.  And neither really has a choice in the matter.


I hear what you're saying here Knuck, but I'm actually with Mike here for different reasons...I'm going to assume that the children aren't at fault here - and I agree, parents bare some responsibility....but, like it or not, these kids have been educated at US taxpayer expense (often times their parents have been paying taxes too, but I'm not going there).  If we paid for their entire education, shouldn't we benefit from them contributing to our economy?

I follow Steve's argument that they shouldn't be here in the first place - but I'll respond with the same argument he likes for carrying a gun...the cat is already out of the bag.  We already paid for their education.  May as well give them a way to use that education to help our economy...

Then we can go ahead and find a better way to deal with narcotics here at home so Central America's economy/politics can stabilize, so they won't need to come here to feed their families in the first place....
govtcheez03:  i kind of look for it - i seek out stupidity and annoy it until it either gets better, gets banned, or goes away on its own

KnuckleBuckett

  • Jackass In Charge
  • Posts: 8674
  • Karma: +26/-259
  • [url=http://google.com]I search a lot[/url]
Re: AZ
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2012, 05:04:55 PM »
You are taking into account that a vast majority of that money is funneled directly to their former country rather than the US...unlike say you.

charlie

  • Jackass In Charge
  • Posts: 7903
  • Karma: +84/-53
Re: AZ
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2012, 05:39:58 PM »
I don't think that's true. But I don't have any evidence one way or another.

I have seen studies showing that illegal immigrants are not a drain on the economy, though.

Steve

  • This 49%er supports Romney
  • Just a Jackass
  • *
  • Posts: 16120
  • Karma: +31/-410
  • Mr. Mom
Re: AZ
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2012, 06:15:03 PM »
Quote
I follow Steve's argument that they shouldn't be here in the first place - but I'll respond with the same argument he likes for carrying a gun...the cat is already out of the bag.  We already paid for their education.  May as well give them a way to use that education to help our economy...

You have no way to monitor this so that we don't end up with the stats heading the other way. You are assuming they want too, what if they opt simply to abuse the system instead? And why should they get further education costs or employment that now cannot be given to an actual US citizen?

You cannot afford them rights, they DO NOT BELONG HERE. How they got here does not matter. What happens to them does not matter. Our laws and our citizens MUST come first and MUST be protected.
hey ethic if you and i were both courting lily allen..... oh wait, which one of us has a relationship that lasted more than the bus ride home?

Steve

  • This 49%er supports Romney
  • Just a Jackass
  • *
  • Posts: 16120
  • Karma: +31/-410
  • Mr. Mom
Re: AZ
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2012, 07:26:59 PM »
>>couldn't post bail

See this I do not understand. ICE puts forth specific procedures for processing illegals. Now if you are arrested under this suspicion the jail/facility has 12 hours max to put their fingerprints through the FBI and ICE databases. FBI is instant usually, ICE will give an instant (usually) result BUT they have the option to flag the person for investigation, which gives them 30 days to verify that the person is or is not an illegal. In many cases the illegal is already in the system from prior arrest and is immediately put into processing.

Once the person is flagged as an illegal the facility has 30 days to transfer the person to the nearest facility that handles immigration. For example say an illegal is arrested in Grand Rapids, MI. They must be transferred to Battle Creek, MI within 30 days for initial processing. After initial processing they go to another facility (in my example, Detroit, MI) where they are assigned what is called an "A Number" (A = Alien) and this is their number to identify them in the ICE system.

The federal mandate from confirmation to A number is 45 days. Once someone has an A number they are entitled, if they can meet the requirements, to post an immigration bond. The amount is set by the federal immigration court in DC and they MUST use an immigration bonding agency like Action Immigration. These bonds are always secured by a credit card or home mortgage that is instantly collected if someone misses a single court date. That is how we get to the previous arrest, most people do not show up or some back after deportation. I once processed the same guy through deportation 9 times in a 2 year period. He took it as an excuse to see his family, like a government funded vacation.

The point is how did she sit there for four months? Was it the jail, or was it ICE? Someone screwed up big time. Kent County Jail in Grand Rapids is notorious for failing to run the prints through ICE in the mandated time frame, and people who are illegal bond out as citizens constantly. I bailed someone out there once that was flagged two days later as a fugitive from Haiti. I would have bet my life on that but the jail swore he came back clean from ICE after being there for 15 days. I caught him two states away on a Greyhound and took him back to KC.

On the flip side people get flagged all the time. For deportation all illegals are moved from the holding facility to DC for out processing, and then transported (for hispanics) to Texas, usually Nuvo Lerado (might be spelling that wrong). We have been a few hours from Lerado before and got a call that the court made a mistake and one of the people was not to be turned over. A few hours later and that call would have been pointless.

Like I said the system is flawed, but we can't let them stay.
hey ethic if you and i were both courting lily allen..... oh wait, which one of us has a relationship that lasted more than the bus ride home?

kermi3

  • ?
  • Ass Wipe
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +56/-22
Re: AZ
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2012, 09:29:07 PM »
I'm with ethic. This AZ shit ain't immigration policy. It's racism. Next they're gonna make me wear gold stars.
govtcheez03:  i kind of look for it - i seek out stupidity and annoy it until it either gets better, gets banned, or goes away on its own

charlie

  • Jackass In Charge
  • Posts: 7903
  • Karma: +84/-53
Re: AZ
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2012, 09:36:03 PM »
I have an idea, let's vilify and demonize people we disagree with. That will surely lead them to change their ways so we can progress towards a better society. Godwin approves!



;)

kermi3

  • ?
  • Ass Wipe
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +56/-22
Re: AZ
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2012, 10:29:01 PM »
Hahaha. Nailed me twice in a day Charlie....sorry....I'm in a shitty shitty mood....but I do think this one boarders on racism....there are plenty of people who "look like illegal immigrants" out there who are long standing legal citizens.....either ask for everyone's papers, or no ones.....
govtcheez03:  i kind of look for it - i seek out stupidity and annoy it until it either gets better, gets banned, or goes away on its own

charlie

  • Jackass In Charge
  • Posts: 7903
  • Karma: +84/-53
Re: AZ
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2012, 10:33:02 PM »
Hahaha. Nailed me twice in a day Charlie....sorry....I'm in a shitty shitty mood....but I do think this one boarders on racism....there are plenty of people who "look like illegal immigrants" out there who are long standing legal citizens.....either ask for everyone's papers, or no ones.....

Absolutely... I think there is a significant subtext of racism. I don't disagree with you there, and sometimes you just need to bitch to friends. I was just giving you a hard time about it.

Steve

  • This 49%er supports Romney
  • Just a Jackass
  • *
  • Posts: 16120
  • Karma: +31/-410
  • Mr. Mom
Re: AZ
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2012, 10:46:25 PM »
The policy is not racism, but perhaps it is enforced by some officers that harbor racism since they are doing the actual arresting.

The biggest issue is we need is fingerprints are not taken for any kind of drivers license, IIRC they are not even needed for a passport. Of course if they were I would say it is an invasion of privacy, so catch 22. Not to mention illegals are very good at forgery. They have bricks and stacks of SS card blanks, like serious legit not created in the basement paper. Where do they get them? The hell if I know but they do.

I dunno, no answer is ever going to make all of us happy. The same people who scream they need to all be grabbed up and deported would scream and sue if they were scooped up by accident. I don't have the answers I just know they have no rights to this land, our freedoms, our resources, or anything else.
hey ethic if you and i were both courting lily allen..... oh wait, which one of us has a relationship that lasted more than the bus ride home?

kermi3

  • ?
  • Ass Wipe
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +56/-22
Re: AZ
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2012, 10:57:21 PM »
There is no answer.  It's an economic problem. You really think they want to be coming here and be treated like shit? Sorry, the country ain't that great that anyone is dying to come here and pick apples.  They have to in order to eat because their job situation is even worse than ours.


There's a reason illegal immigration has decreased since the atart of the economic downturn....and there's a reason we don't have this problem with Canada...when central America, with or without our help, finds a way to increase lawfulness and boost their economy, we'll stop getting illegals from there...and it'll be somewhere else instead....just like it was the Irish a hundred years ago....
govtcheez03:  i kind of look for it - i seek out stupidity and annoy it until it either gets better, gets banned, or goes away on its own

Steve

  • This 49%er supports Romney
  • Just a Jackass
  • *
  • Posts: 16120
  • Karma: +31/-410
  • Mr. Mom
Re: AZ
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2012, 12:49:19 AM »
Kerms their country sucks i get that, still not out problem.
hey ethic if you and i were both courting lily allen..... oh wait, which one of us has a relationship that lasted more than the bus ride home?

charlie

  • Jackass In Charge
  • Posts: 7903
  • Karma: +84/-53
Re: AZ
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2012, 01:09:45 AM »
It's not about making them change their ways. It's about getting others to see their evil.

So who is going to see their evil and how will it help?

The people who agree with you won't change their behavior if you convince them the other guys are evil. At most they will be more inspired to act. The people who are inclined to disagree with you will be offended because they will think you are calling them evil. They will be inspired to act against you. The result will be more anger and hostility and divisiveness, but solutions will be farther away.

The only real benefit when someone demonizes is that it makes them feel superior in their position.