Topic: TSA Security Bullshit

[kermi3]

Hey, wait a minute. Freedom of speech is part of your constitution! Your founding fathers built the country with the intent of that guy being allowed to wear that shirt. If you're not OK with him wearing that shirt, you're clearly a communist socialist America-hating hater of America.

Nah - Fascist.

[ober]

Did you see the shirt? It was CLEARLY sarcastic as far as I'm concerned. I hear what you're saying Ober and Steve. Hell I even agree with you that he was a dumbass for wearing it. But freedom of speech does exist for a reason.

I'm sorry if his speech was upsetting some of the other passengers. That sucks. I understand why too, but the guy had already gotten extra screenings. He was completely unarmed. He posed no threat. At that point, people just didn't like hat he was saying.   Don't get me wrong, he's a douche, but I don't agree with them kicking him off. He has the right to speak. Just like I have the right to call him a douche. First amendment.

You can throw the first amendment around all you want.  But what if his t-shirt wasn't quite as 'nice'.  What if his t-shirt said 'I'm going to kill you and everyone else on this plane and there's nothing you can do to stop me'.  Or what if his shirt said 'I'm feeling frisky... wanna check me for bombs?'.  All of that is technically protected under your precious first amendment... but is it ok to wear something like that?

Not everything is harmless.  Get your head out of your ass.

[JaWiB]

I bet you I could wear the same shirt 100 times while flying and no one would say a thing. The difference? I'm white.

[JaWiB]

BTW I went through airport security once with .22 ammunition in my bag, and it delayed me all of 5 minutes. Can you imagine if this guy had ammunition with him?

[kermi3]

And it's rightfully illegal to yell FIRE in a crowded public space.  But that's not what he did Ober.  It was a sarcastic shirt mocking the TSA.  There was no threat on it at all on it. 

[Steve]

I dunno Steve. I kinda agree with you but at the same time there has to be a line between someone's actions and the tolerated level of discomfort it causes people near them.

There have been a couple notable cases here in Connecticut recently where a person, licensed to carry a firearm, was doing so legally and someone noticed. In one case a waitress at a restaurant and another a person in a movie theatre. In neither instance was the person acting un-normally or doing anything to draw attention to themselves but the print of their firearm under their shirt was noticed.  In both cases the police were called and the persons were arrested for causing a public disturbance because their presence made someone uncomfortable.  In one case the charges were dropped but it took the guy a year to get his gun back.

Now obviously when you're dealing with airlines in a post 9/11 world its a little different.... but where do you draw the line between freedom of speech and the "comfort" of people -- this guy wasn't shouting fire in a theatre he was just wearing a t-shirt.

There is a difference between a civil right being legally exercised and someone making a bad decision that leads a business to make a business decision. We as licensed CCW holders are given the privilege to carry a firearm. People who act like normal people are given the privilege to fly on a plane.

Are you fucking kidding me Steve?  The only difference in what Micah described and what happened to this guy is that it involved the 2nd amendment instead of the 1st.  That's it.  You would think it's fucking nuts for those guys to get arrested for legally having a gun, but you have no problem with this guy legally speaking?  That's bullshit man.  You can't pick your amendments.  I think we should ignore the 4th, 14th, and 19th too....

BTW - I think the restaurants (like Delta) have every right to ask the guys in CT to leave - and I think it's bullshit that they were arrested.

Knuck - Of course speech has repercussions.  A repercussion was that this guy was searched extra hard.  A repercussion is that everyone thinks his a troll asshole douche.  A repercussion was that Delta kicked him off, which I think is BS and I'm with Mike that it's arguably a rights violation, but whatever - they are a non-government company.  But for the guy to then be detained AGAIN and questioned longer...even for the interrogator to ask for permission to interrogate him more.  That's fucking BS.  It's a sarcastic SHIRT on a guy with dark skin.  He has the right to speech.

There is a big difference. The airlines have a duty to protect the passengers and the staff. As for those guys carrying firearms just about every single CCW holder has a legal requirement to take precautions to ensure the firearm is not exposed. I would need the details of each case and the law.

This one is cut and dry. You are an intelligent person how can you defend this guy?

[kermi3]

What if his shirt said "I hate white people" or "I hate democrats" or "abortion is murder?"  All of those things make people uncomfortable and would feel threatening to some people.  So what?  It's his right.  None of them are an actual threat.  Where's the line?

[kermi3]

PROTECT PEOPLE FROM WHAT?  He was not a threat!  He was carefully searched!  The TSA cleared him to fly.  How is that any different from the government clearing those guys to carry guns?  Besides...what terrorist where's a shirt saying "HI I'M A TERRORIST!"???

I think it's bullshit, but I'm okay with Delta (non-governmental company) saying we don't want your business.  I think he might have a case against them, but whatever.  The fact that he was then detained again and repetitively questioned....bullshit.

[Steve]

And it's rightfully illegal to yell FIRE in a crowded public space.  But that's not what he did Ober.  It was a sarcastic shirt mocking the TSA.  There was no threat on it at all on it. 

The threat is in the perception of it. You wear a shirt with a government seal and the words terrorist and bomb on it and you create a negative, uncomfortable perception. It's not funny, it's not clever, it's not intelligent. You do not attack the very thing that comforts the people who are still understandably fearful of airline terrorism.

Those shirts are all in the context. On a plane it is what it is. But don't wear "I hate white people" to a clan rally. Don't wear "abortion is murder" to a woman's rights march. Why? Those two examples are all fair game if you do, but you have to be aware of the possible blowback. Just like this guy KNEW there was a chance this would happen.

[kermi3]

To be clear - I hope when he gets home that this guys mother slaps him good and hard for being a moron. 

[Steve]

PROTECT PEOPLE FROM WHAT?  He was not a threat!  He was carefully searched!  The TSA cleared him to fly.  How is that any different from the government clearing those guys to carry guns?  Besides...what terrorist where's a shirt saying "HI I'M A TERRORIST!"???

I think it's bullshit, but I'm okay with Delta (non-governmental company) saying we don't want your business.  I think he might have a case against them, but whatever.  The fact that he was then detained again and repetitively questioned....bullshit.

Are you dense? Are you being intentionally thick? He created a dissension among the passengers, the staff has no way of knowing if the fear will go away or if someone will react bad at 3,000 feet. What if there is panic? There could be fear, injury, issues, any number of things because of the perception HE created of himself.

The pilot has a ton of things to worry about without adding him to the mix as well.

[ober]

And it's rightfully illegal to yell FIRE in a crowded public space.  But that's not what he did Ober.  It was a sarcastic shirt mocking the TSA.  There was no threat on it at all on it. 

I didn't say he did anything illegal.  I also didn't say what he was wearing had a threat on it.  He didn't get arrested.  He got removed from a place of business by a private company.  They have every right to do so.  Just like any other business can ask you to leave their establishment if you make a scene.

In the world we live in, you don't fuck with people's feeling of safety or make fun of the people that are trying to keep you safe.  I really don't understand why you're defending the guy's actions or the pilot's response.  He has a responsibility to make everyone feel safe and if that is compromised, I feel it is completely within his right to do something about it.  You really have to ignore the shirt at this point and focus on the scene that was created as a result of his actions.

[kermi3]

So what Steve?  Plenty of people on a plane would be disturbed by my "I hate White People" shirt - and perhaps I would be asked to leave...but I shouldn't be detained by the cops for it.  Of course context matters with those shirts I listed before, and of course I wouldn't wear them to a clan rally or an abortion clinic without expecting repercussions...but those repercussions would be from private citizens or companies.  Not from the government repetitively detaining and questioning.

[ober]

To be clear - I hope when he gets home that this guys mother slaps him good and hard for being a moron. 

At least we agree on that.

[Steve]

So what Steve?  Plenty of people on a plane would be disturbed by my "I hate White People" shirt - and perhaps I would be asked to leave...but I shouldn't be detained by the cops for it.  Of course context matters with those shirts I listed before, and of course I wouldn't wear them to a clan rally or an abortion clinic without expecting repercussions...but those repercussions would be from private citizens or companies.  Not from the government repetitively detaining and questioning.

You are missing the point, the subject matter is everything. I hate white people doesn't make the masses fear bombs on the plane or a terrorist attack.