EntropySink

Technical & Scientific => Software => Topic started by: Mike on April 12, 2005, 01:23:34 AM

Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Mike on April 12, 2005, 01:23:34 AM
In your opinon can a piece of software be morally "bad" or morally objectionable.  Or is it the employment of it that determines the morality?
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Major_Small on April 12, 2005, 01:27:37 AM
yes.  you can create software with nothing other than immoral intent.

most 'hacking' software is really network security software, but people use it in ways they weren't intended... maybe ;)
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Mike on April 12, 2005, 01:30:17 AM
Quote
yes. you can create software with nothing other than immoral intent.

But that's my intent.  Does that make the software immoral?

You can kill a person with a hammer.  Does that make the hammer immoral?
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Major_Small on April 12, 2005, 01:32:26 AM
well, taking that stance, no.  software has no 'right' or 'wrong' software is not a being--it is an organization of elecrical signals that, if they had naturally occured elsewhere in the universe in any environment other than the one they were 'compiled' for, would be completely and utterly meaningless and would almost certainly go unnoticed.

so no.

and I thought of this approach just after I posted the first time...
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: A Bit of Fruit on April 12, 2005, 01:49:47 AM
Quote
In your opinon can a piece of software be morally "bad" or morally objectionable


Yes (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/default.mspx)
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Mike on April 12, 2005, 01:53:37 AM
God damn it face we can't use any MS works since we know they are the spawners of satan!
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: ober on April 12, 2005, 09:00:48 AM
I agree with major's points, but I do think that software takes on the personality of the creator, and can therefore have an immoral purpose, therefore making it immoral.

Then again, what is your definition of immoral?
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: joshdick on April 12, 2005, 09:27:23 AM
Well, only rational agents like humans can have morality. As was pointed out, much of the software that is used for nefarious ends has substantial, moral uses; however, I think there exists some software like viruses that exist only to do harm. But even in that case, it wouldn't be completely useless if it were studied in an academic environment. So, no, I don't think software can be inherently "bad."

"there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so." -- Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2.
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Steve on April 14, 2005, 11:31:04 AM
Can software be immoral? That depends, i have to say no actually. The original intent, purpose, or theory of the software can be evil based on the creator, but it is the user of the said software that determines what it does and how it does it.

For example, lets use your hammer example.

Creator one makes a hammer, and states "This is a tool to build homes". He sells the hammer to a local carpenter, who proceeds to bash in his wifes skull.

Creator two makes a hammer, and states "This hammer is to be used to kill". He sells the hammer to a local sadist, who proceeds to build a house for a group of less fortunate children.

In both situations the tool was created and used for two different purposes. The tool is a inanimate object that has no control over anything that happens to it, and its use and purpose was entirely defined on the user.

So was the hammer evil? No. Was the one creator, and one user evil? Absolutely.
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Tama on April 14, 2005, 11:35:28 AM
If the software is created in such a way that the only possible use is immoral then yes, otherwise it depends on how it's used.
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Steve on April 14, 2005, 11:45:37 AM
Quote from: Tama
If the software is created in such a way that the only possible use is immoral


But is this really possible? Even the worst viri, trojans, network probes, etc can be used in ways that are completely moral and ethical for security purposes.
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Tama on April 14, 2005, 11:53:21 AM
>Even the worst viri, trojans, network probes, etc can be used in ways that
>are completely moral and ethical for security purposes.
Those security purposes being to protect against the malware. It's not being used ethically, it's being analyzed so as to develop a defense. And it's viruses, not virii. ;)
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Steve on April 14, 2005, 01:58:33 PM
So in turn that thought would make defense immoral? Use of a virus on a personal network with all consenting parties for the purpose of defense strategy cannot hardly be considered malicious use.

So even the most malicious virus could be used ethically.
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: BMJ on April 14, 2005, 02:15:27 PM
Quote from: Farticus Senior
Yes (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/default.mspx)
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP :mad:  :nyd:


Quote from: RoD
virii
:wstupid: (that's not a word :D)
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Steve on April 14, 2005, 02:47:18 PM
I took a trip to try and prove you wrong, but dictionary.com didnt stand beside me.....seems im a moron  :cry:
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Tama on April 14, 2005, 03:26:24 PM
>I took a trip to try and prove you wrong
Tom Christiansen covered this topic (http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/plural-of-virus.html) pretty thoroughly.
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: drakkenkorin on April 14, 2005, 03:28:48 PM
Quote from: RoD
seems im a moron  :cry:

quote of the week!
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Ken Fitlike on April 14, 2005, 04:01:33 PM
Quote from: Mike
In your opinon can a piece of software be morally "bad" or morally objectionable.  Or is it the employment of it that determines the morality?
I had a friend many years ago who was studying philosophy and often asked questions like this of his friends, started big arguments and quietly took notes in the background before writing up his essay for course submission. :rolleyes:

Morals are what people do. Software isn't people or a person, therefore....

So, the notion that something like software can (or even should) be anthropomorphised in this way is ludicrous.

The use to which a piece of software is put by a person is an entirely different matter.

So, when someone creates what's often termed 'malicious' software, or malware, their intent may be morally wrong (setting aside for the moment the relativism implicit in any discussion regarding morality and that intent is almost impossible to prove), their action of releasing the malware may also be morally wrong but what the software does is essentially amoral because morals only apply to people.

Now, go and write that essay, Mike, in your own words and with your own ideas because any other action would be morally suspect. ;)
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Mike on April 14, 2005, 06:24:03 PM
Not for a class.  I came under fire for writing a mod for SMF that some people had a "moral objection" to.  :rolleyes:
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Steve on April 14, 2005, 07:18:20 PM
Quote from: Tama
>I took a trip to try and prove you wrong
Tom Christiansen covered this topic (http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/plural-of-virus.html) pretty thoroughly.



Shes so through and through with her insults : )
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: salvelinus on April 14, 2005, 08:47:56 PM
It's meaningless to speculate on whether software can be moral or immoral. Software has no morality.
Except, maybe, SkyNet and other AI's...
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Steve on April 14, 2005, 10:25:05 PM
Arguing it cant be immoral based on lack of human qualities is asinine.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=personification
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: ober on April 14, 2005, 10:39:06 PM
Quote from: Mike
Not for a class.  I came under fire for writing a mod for SMF that some people had a "moral objection" to.  :rolleyes:


Mind telling us what it was?  Lemme guess.... it has something to do with pr0n  :thumbsup:
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: jverkoey on April 14, 2005, 11:35:09 PM
What about Artificial Intelligences with emergent behavior?  Assuming they do something that we would classify as bad/immoral, would that make the software immoral?
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Major_Small on April 15, 2005, 12:20:44 AM
Quote from: Tama
And it's viruses, not virii. ;)
stop trying to be Prelude  :nerd:
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Ken Fitlike on April 15, 2005, 12:50:29 AM
Quote from: RoD
Arguing it cant be immoral based on lack of human qualities is asinine.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=personification

:rofl:

Well, you've found a dictionary, so I suppose that's always a start:

moral (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=moral).
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Major_Small on April 15, 2005, 01:22:36 AM
Quote from: Ken Fitlike
:rofl:

Well, you've found a dictionary, so I suppose that's always a start:

moral (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=moral).

 :wstupid: personification doesn't make an object human... it's a human 'pretending' an object has human qualities...
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Ken Fitlike on April 15, 2005, 01:57:34 AM
Quote from: "Ken Fitlike"
So, the notion that something like software can (or even should) be anthropomorphised in this way is ludicrous.
People have morals; 'things' (even esoteric/abstract 'things' like software) don't, unless you subscribe to the notion that morals possess a distinct and separate existence - in which case things like rocks, tennis balls and breakfast cereals would have morals, too.
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Steve on April 15, 2005, 12:35:19 PM
I got told. Well, ken, your proving the point i started out trying to make for me so win win lol
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: VBprogrammer on April 15, 2005, 01:00:44 PM
This'll be the one...http://mods.simplemachines.org/index.php?mod=119
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: salvelinus on April 15, 2005, 03:00:35 PM
Quote from: jverkoey
What about Artificial Intelligences with emergent behavior?  Assuming they do something that we would classify as bad/immoral, would that make the software immoral?

Back to Sky Net...
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: Mike on April 15, 2005, 03:01:48 PM
Sky Net was evil, it was just misunderstood :)
Title: Can software be morally "bad"
Post by: ygfperson on April 15, 2005, 05:04:22 PM
Quote
People have morals; 'things' (even esoteric/abstract 'things' like software) don't, unless you subscribe to the notion that morals possess a distinct and separate existence

I don't subscribe to that notion, but this is pretty much my opinion