Topic: JSP

[ober]

*sigh*... I can tell I'm going to hate this language already.... but I'm stuck with it, so now I have questions.

1) If my personal web host doesn't have Java installed (or a java-enabled webserver like Tomcat)... can I install that or is that something I have to ask the host to do?

2) Can anyone recommend a good JSP/Java book?

[webwhy]

you're out of luck without a servlet container like Tomcat, and Tomcat won't run without java...of course it's easy to install on your workstation while your learning.  if you have shell access you can install tomcat yourself since it binds to port 8080 by default and won't require root access to start; however if you need it to bind to port 80 or work with apache, your host will probably have to get involved if you don't have root.

Java blows for web development.  the learning curve is steep compared to other technologies.  it never seems that you will know enough.  There are NUMEROUS frameworks, specs, and class libraries.  I think it should be avoided unless there is a huge investement in java on the backend like prexisting services or beans that your servlets or jsp pages need to access...in other words you have an application built (logic, data access, etc is present in existing middleware) and you need a web interface for the application, which is probably what your're dealing with. Java shines in those scenarios, but for simple web app stuff the overhead of the learning curve and the extra time doing "java things" (build/deploy loop and xml configs) becomes old quickly...

that said...i'm a fan of this book
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/186100561X/sr=8-6/qid=1152228838/ref=pd_bbs_6/103-4384519-9096640?ie=UTF8

it's old, but it's good.

oh yeah...you're going to want to know ant...trust me...it can really help speed some of the boiler plate bs up...

[hans]

I'm going to have to disagree with webwhy (at least for enterprise apps). There may be a learning curve to use Java for the web but I like it much better than ASP or PHP, having done both in the past. I even run my personal site on Tomcat, although I don't use a ton of Java in them. It doesn't have to be difficult. If you're web host doesn't support JSP's you're stuck, best look into another technology.
As far as Java book, go "thinking in Java", for Java web stuff, look at Spring Framework, that makes life a lot easier.
I think the best thing about Java is all the libraries there are out there. Jakarta commons are your friend.

[Perspective]

If any of these books tickle your fancy let me know and I'll legally sell you my copy.

btw: +1 for java as the best medium for serious web app development. If your going to run a business on the web (beyond something relatively simple like dynamic content or a web board) Java is powerful and worth the effort.

[ober]

Well, I honestly don't know much about the framework at this point.  I approached the server guys about getting me a development PHP instance on one of the servers and all I got was "we can do it... but it'd be a lot easier just to add something to one of the java farms"... or whatever he called it.

It boils down to this... my company bought another company a few months ago... their entire business platform is built on a Java backend with what I think is a jsp front end.  I don't have a choice... I was just wondering what it would take on my current host's end to give me a test environment.  They've setup Tomkat on my PC at work so I have my own environment, but I guess I'll have to build it up on my home PC if I want to play away from work.

*sigh*... oh well, another notch on the belt and another resume builder... HERE I COME!

[webwhy]

i agree with tgm...spring is cool, and a natural way to think about an application's structure.  it makes life easier for sure...but you're still writing TONS of xml!

All i was saying that java's place on the web is the enterprise, where the application logic is usually/hopefully completely separate from the web tier.  java and it's specs and frameworks tend to shine in this model, but for most of the web work out there give me a scripting language any day of the week!  I totally agree that java is powerful, and it's numerous class libraries are a plus; however when i HAVE to use a commons library to upload a file in a web form with any kind of ease, I consider the technology awkward.  Java development in the web space is certainly awkward...

tgm, have you played with the dynamic language support in Spring 2.0?  l haven't yet, but i'm eager to try it out.   it allows for you to code in groovy, jruby, and/or beanshell and deploy "refreshable beans".  This is the kind of stuff that will get me excited about java for the web again.

http://static.springframework.org/spring/docs/2.0.x/reference/dynamic-language.html

[hans]

I'm just starting to mess around with groovy, but I'm interested in learning more about Ruby (and jruby). From what I've been reading the whole ruby on rails thing sounds like the next J2EE.

Ober, about learning JSP stuff. Learn basic Java first if you don't already have a good handle on it. JSP programming is just Java embedded into a webpage within tags. For web stuff you'll likely be looking more at JSTL stuff. I still say Sun is the best place to learn anything you need to know about Java. And as far as the webserver goes, do you know what the company is running right now? Tomcat is only a servlet container, if you're doing EJB's and other junk like that you'll need to look at WebSphere, JBoss, JonAS, or other complete application servers. Or you have to put together other components like JMS and stuff to work with Tomcat.

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/
http://java.sun.com/javaee/5/docs/tutorial/doc/
http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/jstl/reference/docs/index.html
http://java.sun.com/reference/blueprints/

[incognito]

"Thinking in java" is a good learning resource once you know a little bit of java, otherwise it gets really boring. It goes too into detail on a specific subject  before giving you the big picture. I can't understand why books don't first give you a glimpse of things and then go in detail into them.

I suggest you first learn the basics, core language, with one of thoe dummies or 21 days books. Stay away from books that have swing or awt in them initially if you're going to be doing web stuff. Then get "java servlet programming", which gives you a pretty good feel of the web side of java.

[ober]

Goddamn... why does it have to be so complicated?  This is why I like PHP.  There's PHP... and oh wait, yeah.  That's it.  And it works on most major webservers.

J2EE/JSP/JSTL/EJB/JMS/beans/beanshell.... and it all only works on certain servers!?!?  WTF AND WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO BOTHER WITH THIS BULLSHIT!?

[webwhy]

Goddamn... why does it have to be so complicated?

Exactly...It's fine when the complexity of the problem warrents the complexity of the environment, but when the problem is relatively simple, the complexity is absurd.

[Perspective]

Goddamn... why does it have to be so complicated?

Exactly...It's fine when the complexity of the problem warrents the complexity of the environment, but when the problem is relatively simple, the complexity is absurd.

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