Author Topic: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control  (Read 9759 times)

Steve

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 12:34:02 PM »
I'm not going to dive all teh way into this now, I don't have time...

First and foremost - I think this killing demostrated the pitiful state of our mental health system...

But this is the reason the conversation is worth having:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Compare us to other G20/1st world countries...

I might get flamed for this, but most of those other countries have a population that is, on average, of higher value and morals then ours. Our country is pretty screwed up as a whole.
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kermi3

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 12:41:38 PM »
So we should have more guns cause we're more screwed up?

I'm not sure I accept your premise...Show me numbers. 

If you want to compare the same countries to factor things like literacy rate, average income etc out of the equations - I can run those stats if you pick a few countries and get me the numbers...I can statistically remove those things from the data and I bet ability to own handguns would still be the largest predictor of those numbers...Heck, we could even factor out death from other causes if we had the death rate.  Just remember that the deaths from the wiki data are listed as per 100,000 residents.  Pick a few countries and find the literacy rate, overall death rate, handgun/gun ownership and whatever else you want per 100,000 and I'm happy to statistically control for the other factors to see if gun ownership or gun laws still predicts a higher rather of deaths per 100,000

http://www.gapminder.org/ would help you find the data.
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Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 12:49:57 PM »
I might get flamed for this, but most of those other countries have a population that is, on average, of higher value and morals then ours. Our country is pretty screwed up as a whole.
Feel free to elaborate

Steve

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 12:54:54 PM »
So we should have more guns cause we're more screwed up?

No, no no no. I'm simply saying that maybe those figures are so different because our society seems to harbour more people that think it is ok to do horrible things to other people. In other words violent crime seems much more rampant here in the states. Maybe it's that we just don't hear about theirs so much. We have to remember that the majority of our gun related deaths are probably gang, robbery, etc related.

I might get flamed for this, but most of those other countries have a population that is, on average, of higher value and morals then ours. Our country is pretty screwed up as a whole.
Feel free to elaborate

See above
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micah

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 12:56:03 PM »
[ X ]
::: buzzer :::

wrong.

the correct retort is that, yes other countries have been able to implement gun control more successfully, but those countries do not have the historical gun culture of America.  Just like our automobile culture and vast expanses mean that a high-speed rail line from florida to chicago is an idiotic undertaking; similarly our country, built on the use of firearms and the right to posses them, means that you can not easily take away the rightfully owned guns from the millions and millions of law-abiding citizens that own them.   Like the cliche says, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will own guns."  If you took away everyones gun that was legally owned, you'd still be left with millions of guns in the hands of criminals who no longer have the fear of a property owner or victim being able to defend themselves.

as for RoD's dumb argument, I don't think we're any more "messed up" here than people are in any other country.  I think a little more elaboration is needed.
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Steve

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 01:00:52 PM »
[ X ]
::: buzzer :::

wrong.

the correct retort is that, yes other countries have been able to implement gun control more successfully, but those countries do not have the historical gun culture of America.  Just like our automobile culture and vast expanses mean that a high-speed rail line from florida to chicago is an idiotic undertaking; similarly our country, built on the use of firearms and the right to posses them, means that you can not easily take away the rightfully owned guns from the millions and millions of law-abiding citizens that own them.   Like the cliche says, "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will own guns."  If you took away everyones gun that was legally owned, you'd still be left with millions of guns in the hands of criminals who no longer have the fear of a property owner or victim being able to defend themselves.

as for RoD's dumb argument, I don't think we're any more "messed up" here than people are in any other country.  I think a little more elaboration is needed.

That is a very good argument.
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Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 01:01:40 PM »
That is not a buzzer, micah

kermi3

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 01:13:12 PM »
Dude - don't be an ass.  He was trying to make a point - and he said he'd elaborate more if needed....maybe it's not a dumb point...and my point is, I'm happy to run the numbers if someone grabs them for me so we could actually see.


And as to your off the cuff "BUZZZZZ - WRONG."  That's a response based on what you want the response to be - not based on being thoughtful about the problem.  All I said was that given those numbers - it's worth looking at and discussing.  "We've always done it this way" is not a good reason to keep doing it that exact way.  Changing a way that it's always been is hard and not culturally fun (see NFL concussion rules for micro example).  You shouldn't take changes to the gun control laws off the table because "we've always done it that way."  AOL "always" made their $ by providing a semi-closed internet solution.  Properly trained 16th century armies ALWAYS fought in lines in the open field.   Men made the decisions and women never voted.  Plenty of things were culturally entrenched as one thing or another at one time.  Technology changes, times change, culture changes.

I'm not arguing that there's an easy solution.  The root problem is gun violence.  You can approach that problem from a bunch of different ways - education, mental health, improving the economy, gun control, police search rights.  All of those approaches (and many more) could lower gun violence, and changes to any of them would be very hard.  So do we just give up? 

I'm not insensitive to the idea that guns are a part of the american culture, and any steps to more tightly control them should be taken carefully - I hope to own a gun one day - I enjoy target shooting.  I don't know what the solution is, but to say  "No, cause that's not how we do it" to any of these approaches to lowering gun violence is narrowminded.  If it's a real and serious problem, everything should be on the table until real numbers and debate put it off - and I don't think "cause that's how we do it" is enough to take anything off the table.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 01:19:33 PM by kermi3 »
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ober

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 01:16:21 PM »
*slides in*.  *cop voice*  I got a report of a 194 in progress (fake buzzer).  I'm going to ask you to cease all fake activities and continue this argument in a reasonable fashion or I'm going to be forced to GET FUCKING REAL UP IN THIS MOTHAFUCKA!

kermi3

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 01:17:01 PM »
:lol: 7/10
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Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2011, 01:24:50 PM »
> Dude - don't be an ass.  He was trying to make a point - and he said he'd elaborate more if needed....maybe it's not a dumb point...

Goddamn are you defensive

kermi3

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 01:32:22 PM »
And you're offensive...point?
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Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 01:33:50 PM »
RoD is a big boy, he can make his own arguments

Perspective

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 01:38:15 PM »
aside from all the standard arguments, one thing I found interesting about this story is that there were a number of armed citizens around when this happened, and none of them even tried to "take down the badguy". In an intense moment of shock and high stress most people can't react like that. Just goes to show that giving guns to the "good guys" is a poor argument for public safety. And even if people had tried to shoot him there is a serious risk of an innocent bystander being hit.

Also, micah is right about the US having a culture of guns. If it wasn't for this culture, there would be much less demand for guns, less industry and less availability (legal or illegal).

charlie

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2011, 01:47:05 PM »
  • Does banning guns and/or more gun control make people safer?
  • Is additional safety more important than the preservation of liberty, specifically the right to bear arms?
  • Is additional safety more important than the presence of an armed populace as a deterrent to authoritarian government?

If the answer to all three of those questions is yes, then you favor gun control. If the answer to any of them is no, then you don't. The first one is debatable, but also sort of provable based on data, statistics, etc. The second two are just a matter of values.

I had this discussion with some other people who answered "no" to #2 regardless of what the data on #1 said. I'm not sure if anybody here falls into that category (maybe KB with #3?). Do you micah? In other words, if it was proven that a specific type of gun control made people safer, would you be ok with it or would you still be against it because of one of the two reasons I mentioned (or something else)?

So then the question really comes down to #1. We can have subjective arguments all we want here, but it should really come down to scientific studies. I just don't know if there are definitive ones out there that cover all the arguments. If there were, it would quickly help me come to a more concrete position.