Author Topic: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control  (Read 9762 times)

Rob

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2011, 01:48:14 PM »
aside from all the standard arguments, one thing I found interesting about this story is that there were a number of armed citizens around when this happened, and none of them even tried to "take down the badguy". In an intense moment of shock and high stress most people can't react like that. Just goes to show that giving guns to the "good guys" is a poor argument for public safety. And even if people had tried to shoot him there is a serious risk of an innocent bystander being hit.

Also, micah is right about the US having a culture of guns. If it wasn't for this culture, there would be much less demand for guns, less industry and less availability (legal or illegal).

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Steve

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2011, 01:52:07 PM »
aside from all the standard arguments, one thing I found interesting about this story is that there were a number of armed citizens around when this happened, and none of them even tried to "take down the badguy". In an intense moment of shock and high stress most people can't react like that. Just goes to show that giving guns to the "good guys" is a poor argument for public safety. And even if people had tried to shoot him there is a serious risk of an innocent bystander being hit.

Also, micah is right about the US having a culture of guns. If it wasn't for this culture, there would be much less demand for guns, less industry and less availability (legal or illegal).

Most people freeze in moments where they need to act, it takes repeated exposure to these events. It's much like the freeze you experience in dream where the bad guy is chasing you but you can't run. The first time i came under fire i was unarmed, but had i been it would not have mattered. My reaction was to get under a car, it took what felt like forever, was over in a moment, but it felt like a lifetime and my heart was pounding so hard i nearly blacked out. I do not fault those people, and the sad thing is since it was not a direct attack on them personally many would have persecute an individual who did step up and drop him.

As for Micah's attack, i do not take it personally. Gun's often raise heated argument and opinion, and he is just expressing his. I will try and elaborate more intelligently later the point i was trying to make, right now i have to finish up an assignment, shower, and eat before class.
hey ethic if you and i were both courting lily allen..... oh wait, which one of us has a relationship that lasted more than the bus ride home?

Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2011, 02:11:13 PM »
> Is additional safety more important than the presence of an armed populace as a deterrent to authoritarian government?

I think it's a little too late for an armed populace to do anything in the case of a dictatorship or something like that.  The armed forced would destroy any armed revolt in no time at all

charlie

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2011, 02:19:29 PM »
> Is additional safety more important than the presence of an armed populace as a deterrent to authoritarian government?

I think it's a little too late for an armed populace to do anything in the case of a dictatorship or something like that.  The armed forced would destroy any armed revolt in no time at all

I would agree, but I have heard that argument given, and if you believe that the armed populace is essential to maintaining a responsive government then that's a valid reason to be against gun control.

Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2011, 02:22:02 PM »
What's the difference between a valid reason and an invalid reason?

I guess, what makes that valid and some crackpot theory like "I need to own guns to keep the Muslims out of the White House" and invalid one?

charlie

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 02:38:46 PM »
A valid opinion is one that is not based on demonstrably false facts and that is logically consistent.

If there is a legitimate debate about the veracity of certain facts that an opinion is based on, then you can't really call that opinion invalid until those facts are proven to be false. On the other hand, if you can show a logical inconsistency in an opinion, then you can call that opinion invalid.

Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 02:41:15 PM »
So using that definition, keeping Muslims out of the White House is a valid argument?

KnuckleBuckett

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 02:47:13 PM »
  • Does banning guns and/or more gun control make people safer?
  • Is additional safety more important than the preservation of liberty, specifically the right to bear arms?
  • Is additional safety more important than the presence of an armed populace as a deterrent to authoritarian government?

If the answer to all three of those questions is yes, then you favor gun control. If the answer to any of them is no, then you don't. The first one is debatable, but also sort of provable based on data, statistics, etc. The second two are just a matter of values.

I had this discussion with some other people who answered "no" to #2 regardless of what the data on #1 said. I'm not sure if anybody here falls into that category (maybe KB with #3?). Do you micah? In other words, if it was proven that a specific type of gun control made people safer, would you be ok with it or would you still be against it because of one of the two reasons I mentioned (or something else)?

So then the question really comes down to #1. We can have subjective arguments all we want here, but it should really come down to scientific studies. I just don't know if there are definitive ones out there that cover all the arguments. If there were, it would quickly help me come to a more concrete position.

Nicely stated.

1)  Possibly in the certain circumstances.  Not in general.
2)  No.  Not ever.
3)  No.  Not ever.

charlie

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 02:50:05 PM »
So using that definition, keeping Muslims out of the White House is a valid argument?

Yes, until somebody can show otherwise. It wouldn't be too hard to show otherwise, by pointing out that there already Muslims in the White House, that it's not a citizens duty (and is against the law) for a regular citizen to try to do anything about it anyway, and so on and so far. Normally the person making the claim would have certain rebuttals and you can continue until you make it completely clear their reasoning is invalid (and it's even possible that they could come up with valid reasoning as well). But to me that's how you look at an individual argument and decide whether it makes sense or not.

Govtcheez

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2011, 02:51:45 PM »
>Normally the person making the claim would have certain rebuttals and you can continue until you make it completely clear their reasoning is invalid

That's sort of my point with regards to question 3.  I think any honest debate about whether an armed populace would be able to defend themselves against a suddenly despotic government is bound to end coming to the conclusion that it's not possible

charlie

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2011, 02:52:29 PM »
  • Does banning guns and/or more gun control make people safer?
  • Is additional safety more important than the preservation of liberty, specifically the right to bear arms?
  • Is additional safety more important than the presence of an armed populace as a deterrent to authoritarian government?

Nicely stated.

1)  Possibly in the certain circumstances.  Not in general.
2)  No.  Not ever.
3)  No.  Not ever.

Yeah, I thought I remembered that. And honestly, I think that your answers to #2 and #3 are enough to be a perfectly valid reason to be against gun control. The thing is that not everybody in society agrees with that, so you can have two (or more) valid yet conflicting beliefs. In that case, it's just a matter of the will of the people and what we collectively want to decide to do through the government we have.

charlie

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2011, 02:53:33 PM »
>Normally the person making the claim would have certain rebuttals and you can continue until you make it completely clear their reasoning is invalid

That's sort of my point with regards to question 3.  I think any honest debate about whether an armed populace would be able to defend themselves against a suddenly despotic government is bound to end coming to the conclusion that it's not possible

Ok, that's fair. But I think you have to argue it. I'm not sure it's obvious. But I guess most people who believe #3 also believe #2, which would make #3 moot, so I guess that one really doesn't need to be there.

KnuckleBuckett

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2011, 02:58:46 PM »
Agreed.

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2011, 03:36:40 PM »
So you can't preserve liberty and have gun control laws? I think #2 makes a pretty big assumption about what liberty is. I feel free and full of liberty even though I don't have the right to own a mac-10.


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Rob

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Re: The AZ Shooting & Gun Control
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2011, 03:48:47 PM »
A valid opinion is one that is not based on demonstrably false facts and that is logically consistent.

If there is a legitimate debate about the veracity of certain facts that an opinion is based on, then you can't really call that opinion invalid until those facts are proven to be false. On the other hand, if you can show a logical inconsistency in an opinion, then you can call that opinion invalid.

Surely opinions are just that. Opinions. By definition they're not valid or invalid. I think you're confusing opinion and fact. In my opinion anyway.