Author Topic: AZ  (Read 20226 times)

Mike

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Re: AZ
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 08:31:43 AM »
Knuck:  What do you do with children who were brought into the country illegally, grew up here, and are trying to be productive members of society?  Are they responsible for the actions of their parents?  Did they choose to be here illegally?  If you are going to deport them, where are you going to send them?

Are you not listening?  I told you I don't want them gone.  Read up.  I am not pulling a Steve here.  His answer is too binary to a situation that cannot be solved that way. 
Really?

Quote
I call bullroar here.  If you are in any country illegally it is wrong and needs to be attended to.  We have always had many ways of becoming a legal citizen of the US.  If you can't then consider 1) Leaving.  2) Altering your circumstances for such.  3) Dealing with the penalties of disobeying local, state, and federal laws.
So, should these kids:
1) Leave?
2) How do they alter their circumstance?
3) Did they really break the law under our system of justice?

Now: How about answering the question.  What do we do with them that is fair to both them and the ones that came here legally?

kermi3

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Re: AZ
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 09:03:02 AM »
If they came here illegally they need to leave, period. Do it the right way and if that is hard well then tough luck that is how the coin falls.


You realize many of these people came here as infants or toddlers and have spent there entire lives in the US.  May not even know they're illegal until they're teenagers?

Okay....had to get that out...now I'll go back and read the rest....
govtcheez03:  i kind of look for it - i seek out stupidity and annoy it until it either gets better, gets banned, or goes away on its own

Steve

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Re: AZ
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 09:04:52 AM »
We do not need to be fair to both. Those who come here illegally deserve nothing at all except a trip home. You cannot reward the blatant violation of our laws.

Kerms:

If they are born here and have a legit birth certificate and SS number then they are, imo, citizens. If they do not, then they are not. Sorry but that is on their parents not us.
hey ethic if you and i were both courting lily allen..... oh wait, which one of us has a relationship that lasted more than the bus ride home?

Mike

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Re: AZ
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 10:02:10 AM »
What is the difference between a person who was born here and a person who came here the day after their birth?

ober

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Re: AZ
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 10:04:34 AM »
What is the difference between a person who was born here and a person who came here the day after their birth?
According to the law, citizenship.

Mike

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Re: AZ
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 10:05:18 AM »
You know, that is one thing I never understood.  I don't carry any paperwork with me that says I'm a US Citizen.  And until a few years back I didn't even have a passport.  So, if I was stopped who do I prove I'm here legally?

kermi3

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Re: AZ
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 10:08:46 AM »
I'm with you obes, but why not give those who came the next day a path to a green card and citizenship?
govtcheez03:  i kind of look for it - i seek out stupidity and annoy it until it either gets better, gets banned, or goes away on its own

Mike

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Re: AZ
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 10:27:15 AM »
What is the difference between a person who was born here and a person who came here the day after their birth?
According to the law, citizenship.
And beyond that?

KnuckleBuckett

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Re: AZ
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 01:26:09 PM »
Mike you are being an ass here.

What is the difference between a guy who walks up to you and a guy who walks up to you and hits you with an axe.  Your question and attitude are asinine.

I never said I had all of the answers.  I don't.  However there are probably a few people that do.  Lets let them have a say.  Address these issues via fairly unbiased experts.

What about all the kids?  Shrug, dunno.  Guess that is their PARENTS responsibility.  I tire of that bullshit excuse though.  I can tell you for a fact a couple generations back our ancestors didn't have the taxpayer on the hook paying for legal or illegal immigrant healthcare and or welfare.  We are.  And according to the podcasts I listen to we can't afford to care for our very own US citizens right now.  Why in the heck should we take on that load from other countries?  Canada sure the heck doesn't.  Do any other sovereign states do this?

The situation is a problem.  It needs to be dealt with thoughtfully and thoroughly.  Not in a binary fashion.

I specifically said I don't want them gone.  I do want some of them gone, however I see nothing positive coming from some mass deportation silliness.  The USA is vital to their livelihoods and they are in many areas vital to ours.  So address it as such.  Address it in a way that they can become tax paying, citizens under the same laws and constitution that we and our forefathers have. 

Oh and BTW this problem is not limited to south of the border immigration.

ober

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Re: AZ
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 01:28:42 PM »
I'm with you obes, but why not give those who came the next day a path to a green card and citizenship?
I'm not disagreeing with you.  Just answering Mike's question.

What is the difference between a person who was born here and a person who came here the day after their birth?
According to the law, citizenship.
And beyond that?
Beyond what?  That is the basis of what we're talking about.  People are arguing that depending on the day you get here and when you decide to walk out of a vagina should decide whether you have rights here or not and I find that to be disturbingly arbitrary.  Hence my comments about providing easier, reasonable paths to citizenship or work permits.

ober

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Re: AZ
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2012, 01:30:38 PM »
You know, that is one thing I never understood.  I don't carry any paperwork with me that says I'm a US Citizen.  And until a few years back I didn't even have a passport.  So, if I was stopped who do I prove I'm here legally?
You can provide your SSN/birth certificate, which can then be looked up.  That's really all they have to base anything on.  I guess you're fucked if you forget that.

Mike

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Re: AZ
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2012, 02:02:21 PM »
Mike you are being an ass here.
Dude, I'm just asking questions here.  I think I've been pretty dang calm and nice in this topic.  Take your hostility elsewhere.

Quote
What is the difference between a guy who walks up to you and a guy who walks up to you and hits you with an axe.  Your question and attitude are asinine.
What attitude?  A person who comes here as a child had no intention or knowledge of breaking the law.

Quote
I never said I had all of the answers.  I don't.  However there are probably a few people that do.  Lets let them have a say.  Address these issues via fairly unbiased experts.
Fine me one unbiased expert.  Sorry, but they don't exist.

Quote
What about all the kids?  Shrug, dunno.  Guess that is their PARENTS responsibility.  I tire of that bullshit excuse though.  I can tell you for a fact a couple generations back our ancestors didn't have the taxpayer on the hook paying for legal or illegal immigrant healthcare and or welfare.  We are.  And according to the podcasts I listen to we can't afford to care for our very own US citizens right now.  Why in the heck should we take on that load from other countries?  Canada sure the heck doesn't.  Do any other sovereign states do this?
Go back a few more generations and you'll see that our people did much much much worse things then enter a country illegally in order to gain employment.

Quote
The situation is a problem.  It needs to be dealt with thoughtfully and thoroughly.  Not in a binary fashion.

I specifically said I don't want them gone.  I do want some of them gone, however I see nothing positive coming from some mass deportation silliness.  The USA is vital to their livelihoods and they are in many areas vital to ours.  So address it as such.  Address it in a way that they can become tax paying, citizens under the same laws and constitution that we and our forefathers have. 

Oh and BTW this problem is not limited to south of the border immigration.
So how do we do that?  How do we get from where we are now to that place?

Mike

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Re: AZ
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2012, 02:07:40 PM »
I'm with you obes, but why not give those who came the next day a path to a green card and citizenship?
I'm not disagreeing with you.  Just answering Mike's question.

What is the difference between a person who was born here and a person who came here the day after their birth?
According to the law, citizenship.
And beyond that?
Beyond what?  That is the basis of what we're talking about.  People are arguing that depending on the day you get here and when you decide to walk out of a vagina should decide whether you have rights here or not and I find that to be disturbingly arbitrary.  Hence my comments about providing easier, reasonable paths to citizenship or work permits.
Beyond just a simple "the law says so".  What makes a citizen a citizen?  Law doesn't dictate what is just or correct, what is just and correct should dictate the law.

You know, that is one thing I never understood.  I don't carry any paperwork with me that says I'm a US Citizen.  And until a few years back I didn't even have a passport.  So, if I was stopped who do I prove I'm here legally?
You can provide your SSN/birth certificate, which can then be looked up.  That's really all they have to base anything on.  I guess you're fucked if you forget that.
Ok, do you carry that information with you?  (I know my SSN but most people don't).  Do you consider it reasonable for a person to be detained on the suspicion of being in the country illegally and them not having that information on them?  Until my mom died I didn't know where my birth certificate was.  BTW having a SSN doesn't mean you are a citizen (though I think the SS office associates that information with your number).

KnuckleBuckett

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Re: AZ
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2012, 02:27:57 PM »
Mike you are being an ass here.
Dude, I'm just asking questions here.  I think I've been pretty dang calm and nice in this topic.  Take your hostility elsewhere.

Quote
What is the difference between a guy who walks up to you and a guy who walks up to you and hits you with an axe.  Your question and attitude are asinine.
What attitude?  A person who comes here as a child had no intention or knowledge of breaking the law.

Quote
I never said I had all of the answers.  I don't.  However there are probably a few people that do.  Lets let them have a say.  Address these issues via fairly unbiased experts.
Fine me one unbiased expert.  Sorry, but they don't exist.

Quote
What about all the kids?  Shrug, dunno.  Guess that is their PARENTS responsibility.  I tire of that bullshit excuse though.  I can tell you for a fact a couple generations back our ancestors didn't have the taxpayer on the hook paying for legal or illegal immigrant healthcare and or welfare.  We are.  And according to the podcasts I listen to we can't afford to care for our very own US citizens right now.  Why in the heck should we take on that load from other countries?  Canada sure the heck doesn't.  Do any other sovereign states do this?
Go back a few more generations and you'll see that our people did much much much worse things then enter a country illegally in order to gain employment.

Quote
The situation is a problem.  It needs to be dealt with thoughtfully and thoroughly.  Not in a binary fashion.

I specifically said I don't want them gone.  I do want some of them gone, however I see nothing positive coming from some mass deportation silliness.  The USA is vital to their livelihoods and they are in many areas vital to ours.  So address it as such.  Address it in a way that they can become tax paying, citizens under the same laws and constitution that we and our forefathers have. 

Oh and BTW this problem is not limited to south of the border immigration.
So how do we do that?  How do we get from where we are now to that place?

It was more annoyance than hostility.  I maintain that law has no viable place in this is crazy.

A person who comes here as a child was either intentionally brought here by their parent(s) or came intentionally (slave labor aside) themselves.  The parent or the child, maybe both, knew very well that they were entering illegally and that there are both positive and negative repercussions of their actions.

Again.  Read what I wrote.  I understand that unbiased humans are non-existent.  Thus I fairly.  Best I can do.

I know previous generations committed everything up to and including genocide to take this land for themselves.  This does not mean I support the means they used.

How do we do that?  I already stated I don't have these answers blah blah "fairly unbiased"...


Mike

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Re: AZ
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2012, 02:37:55 PM »
It was more annoyance than hostility.  I maintain that law has no viable place in this is crazy.

The law should be represent (for the lack of a better term) our beliefs in what is fair and just.  Murder isn't wrong because it is illegal, it is illegal because it is wrong.

Quote
A person who comes here as a child was either intentionally brought here by their parent(s) or came intentionally (slave labor aside) themselves.  The parent or the child, maybe both, knew very well that they were entering illegally and that there are both positive and negative repercussions of their actions.
The problem is that in our system of justice we don't hold children accountable for the actions of their parents.  A 6 year old might know they are entering the country illegally but doesn't know the full weight of it.  An infant doesn't know it at all.  And neither really has a choice in the matter.

This also comes into the question of what it means to be a citizen.  IMO, a person that entered into the country (legally or illegally) at an early age and became part of the society is more of a citizen than a person born to US parents who leaved the vast majority of their life in another country.  The only difference is (as ober would put it) who's vagina you walked out of and where it was at.  That strikes me as a poor line for determining just and fairness and law.