Author Topic: Obama's Nobel Prize  (Read 8343 times)

micah

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2009, 09:28:18 AM »
I kind of have a problem labeling things as "hate" crimes.  I mean, if you libel/vandalize/assault/batter/murder someone, what does it matter if their black or jewish or gay or fat or whatever?  You're still a duchebag and the law should be applied equally regardless of motive.  right? or not? I dunno, discuss.
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Rob

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2009, 09:40:17 AM »
Rightly or wrongly we discriminate between someone who batters a (for example) black guy to death because he slept with his wife, and someone who batters a black guy to death because he's black.

I can have far more empathy / sympathy with the former...

Rob

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #77 on: October 11, 2009, 09:40:38 AM »
...Matthew Shepherd act...ENDA...DADT...DOMA

I need some information on these things, and I'm too lazy to Google this morning.

I have a pounding hangover and I'm doing this from memory, sooo I might be completely screwing something up here:

The Matthew Shepherd Act is a hate crimes bill that would make gay-bashings a hate crime nationally (currently now state-by-state). It is named after a gay college student who was beaten to death in Wyoming in the late 90s.

ENDA = Employee Non-Discrimination Act, adding sexual identity (and what the gays have really been pushing for, gender identity for the trannies as well) to the national list of things you can't fire people for being.

DADT = "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", the archaic policy that forces gay service members to risk being dishonorably discharged if they disclose or act on their homosexuality. If you want to Google something, look up how many Arabic translators we've fired because they were gay. We're talking a critical position where people can't easily be replaced.

DOMA = The Defense of Marriage Act. Made it so that marriages performed in one state don't have to be accepted by the rest of the country as well via the Full Faith and Credit clause (which provides that legal documents from one state must be accepted as valid by the others). It also bans federal recognition. This legislation has also made for interesting legal situations when a couple gay married in one place tries to divorce in another.

Interesting to note, DOMA and DADT were both signed into law by Clinton.

edit: to add some clarification.


ty.

Rob

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2009, 09:41:23 AM »
charlie, you're probably right, but I'm pessimistic because he more or less controlled the narrative all throughout the election cycle and as soon as he got elected he did little to nothing to combat misinformation and the media narrative has swung back the other way.  Now we're going to end up with a health care bill that makes no one happy, we'll still be fighting inthe middle east forever, and gays will still be second class citizens for the forseeable future.

Newsflash: Politicians lie to get in office, then don't do shit they'd promised. Personally I'm shocked.


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That doesn't mean I have to be happy about it

True, but you seemed surprised. :)

Govtcheez

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2009, 10:32:46 AM »
I guess I am a little.  I fell into the group of people who actually thought it'd be different.  I voted for him because I actually liked him, not because he was a democrat.  Serves me right, I guess.  Should have written in Brian Moore like I said I would.

Rob

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2009, 11:23:37 AM »
I guess I am a little.  I fell into the group of people who actually thought it'd be different.  I voted for him because I actually liked him, not because he was a democrat.  Serves me right, I guess.  Should have written in Brian Moore like I said I would.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so cynical :(

charlie

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2009, 11:49:33 AM »
> Did you really expect him to raise the taxes on the rich during the recession?

If he wasn't planning to do it during the recession, he probably shouldn't have talked about it.

> It's been 9 months and you're mad that he hasn't pulled out the troops within 16 months?

:rolleyes:  No, but he hasn't made any moves to, either.  If he was going to do it, things would have been moving a lot by now.

> DADT

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1903545,00.html

> it's the conservative Democrats that are afraid of being voted out of office if they go too far to the left.

Definitely right, but he's just rolling over and taking it.  We've gone from talking about universal coverage to a public option to the administration saying that they'd sign it even without a public option.  I think at this point he's just trying to attach his name to major health care legislation, whether it changes anything positive or not.  Kinda like how Bush always pointed to NCLB as a major accomplishment even though it's a piece of shit.

WTH? It's like we heard two totally different things during the campaign, and not only that, but you're not even factoring in important stuff like, you know, reality.

A lot of his plans were things he'd been wanting to do for a while. Nobody knew how bad the recession was going to be until a month or two before the election, so of course he was going to run on a platform of raising taxes on the rich before we all realized how bad the economy was. Once it became clear the economy was horrible, he and others said that some of his plans would have to wait until the economy recovers. You don't remember that? Even if you don't remember that, you can't understand how adjusting to changing circumstances is a good thing for any politician? It's not like his tax plan disappeared when he was elected, it is just postponed and will likely re-appear once unemployment rates drop down again.

What's your point with the time article? It explains exactly what I've been saying:
Quote
But the trouble is that the law was passed by Congress and, if Obama decided to go around the legislature, he would face political blowback.
Until health care is done he doesn't want to risk "political blowback".

And finally, Obama differentiated himself from Clinton by not wanting to force everybody to get covered, so I don't know when you thought you'd get universal coverage. The bill that gets signed probably will end up with a public option after all, too. He's trying to get something, anything passed in order to get the ball rolling. According to the CBO, the current bill most likely to get through would insure an extra 29 million people and slow the rise of health care cost to save the government money (possibly more than $1 trillion over the second 10 years) and stop people from being denied coverage for pre-existing conditions or being dropped for getting sick. Those three things were always the things I've been under the impression were the goals of reform. But you're right, at this point he's not trying to make any positive changes, he's just trying to make himself look good. :rolleyes:

C'mon! This is reality we're talking about. Based on what you're describing, I honestly do think he's going to completely let you down over the course of his presidency. So go ahead and stay pessimistic, because your expectations weren't realistic and he is never going to live up to them.

charlie

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2009, 12:02:36 PM »
charlie, you're probably right, but I'm pessimistic because he more or less controlled the narrative all throughout the election cycle and as soon as he got elected he did little to nothing to combat misinformation and the media narrative has swung back the other way.  Now we're going to end up with a health care bill that makes no one happy, we'll still be fighting inthe middle east forever, and gays will still be second class citizens for the forseeable future.

Newsflash: Politicians lie to get in office, then don't do shit they'd promised. Personally I'm shocked.


(for reference, this is irony)

Honestly, I don't think politicians lie to get into office. Well, maybe that's accurate if you use a definition of lie that I don't think is appropriate.

Politicians run on a platform. They say, "this is what I want to do as congresswoman/senator/president/whatever." If you think that means that they will do exactly those things when in office, that's your fault, not theirs.

Politicians also gloss over the realities and caveats to the things in their platform so that it makes it sound like they are making promises when they really are just laying out their platform. That's on them and maybe even more so the society we live in.

Complaints about politicians lying to get elected make it sound like these are bad people who are power hungry and don't care about the things they talk about. I think that's a rare exception and not the norm. Even the worst of the worst have ideas on how our society should be and government influence on that society and they do what they can to get elected so they can do what they think is right for their city/state/country. In my opinion, complaints, or at least the complaints that are meant to be somewhat constructive, miss the point entirely when they criticize politicians for being politicians.

Rob

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2009, 12:15:54 PM »
Complaints about politicians lying to get elected make it sound like these are bad people who are power hungry and don't care about the things they talk about.


Aaaaaaand your point is? I mean, that's my firm belief, in general. I see no evidence to the contrary.


Edited to say...

Yeah, sure, I'm sure most of them start off with the best will in the world, but you must at least acknowledge that they do it for the power? To paraphrase Groucho Marx, "I wouldn't want to be governed by someone who has the desire to govern me".

charlie

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2009, 12:16:58 PM »
Listening to NPR a minute ago, sounds like DADT might be repealed...that'd be nice...

As far as I can tell it's not really news. He didn't say how or when, and he'd already said before he would do it, so it's not really news until he does something.

charlie

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2009, 12:17:49 PM »
Complaints about politicians lying to get elected make it sound like these are bad people who are power hungry and don't care about the things they talk about.


Aaaaaaand your point is? I mean, that's my firm belief, in general. I see no evidence to the contrary.

That's fine if that's your belief. I was just explaining that I think you're very wrong. I've written too much already this morning so if you were actually curious why I think that it'll have to wait until later. :thumbsup:

Rob

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2009, 12:21:03 PM »
if you were actually curious why I think that it'll have to wait until later.

Sure! Look forward to it ;)

charlie

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2009, 12:07:21 AM »
if you were actually curious why I think that it'll have to wait until later.

Sure! Look forward to it ;)

:)

Nothing profound. It could be that I'm just not cynical. :dunno:

The way I see it, everybody looks at things from different perspectives and has different values and ideas about what is right and wrong and good and bad. But because it is instinctual for us to see "evil" in people who don't act according to our own morals, we end up thinking of them as bad people. They are acting according to their morals, and so when we disagree they think we are bad people. We then view every action of the other side from that perspective. In reality, both sides are fighting for what they think is right and good, but it doesn't seem that way from the other side.

Then, throw into that the fact that humans are very imperfect. Even when we mean well we screw up, fail, offend people, misspeak, etc. Misunderstandings that occur when each side is already skeptical and suspicious lead to animosity or cynicism.

Now obviously, one could say that people like Hitler or Bin Laden were just acting based on their values and morals and what they thought was right. So unless we apply our own values at least a little bit you wouldn't be able to call anybody evil. But my personal opinion is that "bad" people are really very rare. Think about it, do you know any "bad" people? I'm not talking about the jerk at the coffee shop or the idiot who ran a red light and smashed your car. You don't really know those people. I'm talking about people you know. Heck, we have somebody here who spews racist nonsense, and yet I doubt many if any of us consider him inherently bad or think he is motivated by evil thinking. In reality, most people we think of as "bad" are people we don't actually know and we'd probably think differently if they were a friend or family member.

So I start with that view of people in general and look at the behavior of politicians.

First, I wonder why they would choose such a profession. In today's society it would seem that you get more power through money than through being part of government, and there are certainly better ways to make money, so I'm not entirely sure that's it. I also see many politicians still active in trying to do good even after they have left office, which makes me think that the desire to do the right thing greatly influences their choice. (For an obvious example, Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter don't need the hassle, but they are both still active in trying to bring peace or prosperity to the world. People do similar things on smaller scales.) This, plus my base belief that people do what they do because they think its right, makes me believe that politicians get into politics primarily because they want to do the right thing. You could argue there are better ways to do the right thing, but I would point to human imperfections like ego which lead many people to believe that they can help through wielding power.

So politicians are imperfect people trying to do the right thing but who in most cases have a different idea from me about what the right thing is. A big part of being able to do the right thing is being in a position to do it. That's the power seeking part. It's harder to do something if somebody else is the one getting elected. And in politics, it's difficult to get elected without emphasizing campaign pledges, differentiating yourself from your opponent, and making compromises that might go against your real beliefs. I mean, you really have a hard time getting elected if you don't do these things, right?

When I look at the behavior of most politicians, it completely fits that pattern. Flawed people who are trying to do the right thing, but recognize that they have to compromise their beliefs a little to be able to make that happen. They talk about some things that maybe they don't care about, but the reason behind doing so is so they can be in a position to do things that they do care about and they do think are important. Despite being completely different people with very different values, I think GW Bush and Obama both fit that description. And if that applies to two people so different, it should be obvious that I think it's true for most other politicians as well.

Holy fuck I made a long post again. Damn it I meant to make it only a few sentences. Sorry about that, but there you go.

Shit... I just now saw your previous edit and now my whole post doesn't make sense. Oh well, I guess I'll fix it tomorrow.  :o

Ken Fitlike

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #88 on: October 12, 2009, 05:10:59 AM »
Och, you lads are just being churlish - Ba' 'ba' is a perfect choice for the peace prize, given his immense but unfortunately unreported efforts in a parallel dimension. klaatu baraka nikto!
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?.

Rob

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Re: Obama's Nobel Prize
« Reply #89 on: October 12, 2009, 08:57:58 AM »
>>klaatu baraka nikto!

Haha!