Topic: AZ

[KnuckleBuckett]

What is the feeling in here over this kind of thing?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/16/brewer-blocks-undocumented-immigrants-from-receiving-benefits/?test=latestnews

[ober]

I don't think it has anything to do with racism.  Personally, I think people here illegally should face some kind of repercussion... but I am not on the 'deport them all' bandwagon either.  I think we should make it easier for people to become citizens or at least get work permits more easily which is effectively what Obama just did.  And I think as long as they're making efforts to become legal or have some sort of permit to be here, they shouldn't be held back from basic public services like driving licenses and such.

[charlie]

I'm sure there is an element of xenophobia driving a lot of those efforts, but I think there's legitimate rationale to block illegal immigrants from getting services. I mean, they broke the law, why should they benefit? It seems pretty obvious when put that simply. Too bad it's not really that simple.

I don't really have a problem with that kind of rule, but I would have voted against it given the opportunity. I think federal immigration laws need to be changed to allow more people to enter the U.S. and reduce the incentives for coming here illegally. Once that's done, then additional restrictions on illegals will make more sense.

[KnuckleBuckett]

I don't think it has anything to do with racism.  Personally, I think people here illegally should face some kind of repercussion... but I am not on the 'deport them all' bandwagon either.  I think we should make it easier for people to become citizens or at least get work permits more easily which is effectively what Obama just did.  And I think as long as they're making efforts to become legal or have some sort of permit to be here, they shouldn't be held back from basic public services like driving licenses and such.

Everything that Jan Brewer does is out of racism.
I don't know this person, however I doubt everything they do is out of racism.

The problem is, by denying these benefits (such as driver's
licenses as the article mentions), they're only going to make
things worse. If someone is here illegally, they're still going to
drive with or without a license. But without one, they won't
be able to secure insurance.
The same could be said about people that lose their licenses for (hundreds) of other reasons and things.  Drunk drivers (law breakers all the same) should be allowed to keep their licenses because they are going to drive anyway.

And "illegals" aren't always what the stereotype says they
are. A lot of them are children or young adults who have been
here their entire lives and have no other place to be. It's not like
they ignored the law and came here out of malice. The entire
The idea of punishing someone because of circumstance just
rubs me the wrong way. The concept of "illegals" is stupid
anyway. All of us come from another country.
I call bullroar here.  If you are in any country illegally it is wrong and needs to be attended to.  We have always had many ways of becoming a legal citizen of the US.  If you can't then consider 1) Leaving.  2) Altering your circumstances for such.  3) Dealing with the penalties of disobeying local, state, and federal laws.

When I was in New Zealand, I found one, ONE, mexican
restaurant and it was terrible. They charged me $24 for a
g'damn burrito. Something I could have gotten here for $4
and which was infinitely better. The United States is
supposed to be a haven for people seeking a better life.
I agree.  Do this legally.

There's no hope for the economy of this country. Capitalism
has an inherent bias to pursue efficiency in order to increase
profit margins. Eventually, single men will be able to run entire
companies by themselves and there won't be any jobs anywhere.
What we need to do is start regulating "innovation" and
technology.
Sadly this ultra-socialist concept is doomed to fail.  Regulating innovation simply leaves the regulated country farther and farther behind their respective global competitors.  What you are preaching is a deeply flawed concept.

[charlie]

And "illegals" aren't always what the stereotype says they
are. A lot of them are children or young adults who have been
here their entire lives and have no other place to be. It's not like
they ignored the law and came here out of malice. The entire
The idea of punishing someone because of circumstance just
rubs me the wrong way. The concept of "illegals" is stupid
anyway. All of us come from another country.

I call bullroar here.  If you are in any country illegally it is wrong and needs to be attended to.  We have always had many ways of becoming a legal citizen of the US.  If you can't then consider 1) Leaving.  2) Altering your circumstances for such.  3) Dealing with the penalties of disobeying local, state, and federal laws.

Like I said before, I sympathize with this thinking, but I believe it is too simplistic for the current situation. With the laws the way they are, there is often no alternative (there aren't a lot of migrant farmworker visas for example). Poor conditions in other countries incentivize good people to come to the U.S. for a better life. It is completely rational to skirt the law if it provides a better life for you or your family, so it doesn't make sense to expect people not to do that.



For ethic:

Everything that Jan Brewer does is out of racism.

I don't know this person, however I doubt everything they do is out of racism.

The problem is, by denying these benefits (such as driver's
licenses as the article mentions), they're only going to make
things worse. If someone is here illegally, they're still going to
drive with or without a license. But without one, they won't
be able to secure insurance.

The same could be said about people that lose their licenses for (hundreds) of other reasons and things.  Drunk drivers (law breakers all the same) should be allowed to keep their licenses because they are going to drive anyway.

And "illegals" aren't always what the stereotype says they
are. A lot of them are children or young adults who have been
here their entire lives and have no other place to be. It's not like
they ignored the law and came here out of malice. The entire
The idea of punishing someone because of circumstance just
rubs me the wrong way. The concept of "illegals" is stupid
anyway. All of us come from another country.

I call bullroar here.  If you are in any country illegally it is wrong and needs to be attended to.  We have always had many ways of becoming a legal citizen of the US.  If you can't then consider 1) Leaving.  2) Altering your circumstances for such.  3) Dealing with the penalties of disobeying local, state, and federal laws.

When I was in New Zealand, I found one, ONE, mexican
restaurant and it was terrible. They charged me $24 for a
g'damn burrito. Something I could have gotten here for $4
and which was infinitely better. The United States is
supposed to be a haven for people seeking a better life.

I agree.  Do this legally.

There's no hope for the economy of this country. Capitalism
has an inherent bias to pursue efficiency in order to increase
profit margins. Eventually, single men will be able to run entire
companies by themselves and there won't be any jobs anywhere.
What we need to do is start regulating "innovation" and
technology.

Sadly this ultra-socialist concept is doomed to fail.  Regulating innovation simply leaves the regulated country farther and farther behind their respective global competitors.  What you are preaching is a deeply flawed concept.

[KnuckleBuckett]

Charlie.

I disagree.  Stealing from the till accomplishes the same goal.  It is still against the law and is simply not a answer to making more cash.

My wife and I went through all of the processes necessary for her to gain her citizenship.  It wasn't easy, but it had to be done to do things legally.  She works, pays all of the fees that illegals do not, and does her part for her new country.  I have little tolerance for those who do not.

I don't want them gone.  I want them legal in a fair and reasonable way.   By fair and reasonable, I mean it needs to be attainable while remaining just to the millions that have also completed the process. 

[Steve]

If they came here illegally they need to leave, period. Do it the right way and if that is hard well then tough luck that is how the coin falls.

[Jake]

If they came here illegally they need to leave, period. Do it the right way and if that is hard well then tough luck that is how the coin falls.

you're such a moron sometimes RoD 

what if they are in the US illegal, but do pay taxes, raise families, and are contributors to the overall well being of the society? What if they have kids that were born here? would you make them leave to?

Immigrants, even the illegal ones!, make this country go 'round, my friend. Your solution is impractical, stupid, and impossible to execute. There needs to be a fair, legal, and attainable path to citizenship for everyone.

[Steve]

I'm not prepared to spend billions of tax payer dollars sorting out the history of each person that is here illegally to determine the "good" ones from the bad. The actions of an individual after breaking the law are completely irrelevant. The law is the law, once you break that to come to this country illegally every single thing you do and build is on the foundation of that violation and should never have happened, therefore it cannot be used to justify the violation.

If someone decides to kidnap a bunch of kids and then raises them to be doctors, lawyers, and they go on to save lives does that make that person a good parent, or make it ok? Fuck no.

You can say what you want and call me names but the fact is if you break the law you broke the law. This country has enough issues without all the immigration issues. Do you have any idea at all what it costs this country to deal with this? The jobs that are lost? The crime that takes place in the camps? Tell you what you go spend a few years rounding up the illegals and then tell me I'm wrong. The system is broken but step one is reducing the number of illegals.

[charlie]

Charlie.

I disagree.  Stealing from the till accomplishes the same goal.  It is still against the law and is simply not a answer to making more cash.

Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread if you know your family will starve otherwise? To me, this is really a difference in values. Some people place more value on authority and rule of law. Others don't place as much value on those things, which leaves room for the values of compassion and care that we all share to be the primary driver of their beliefs.

I don't think either side is inherently right or wrong, either, so there's no easy answer. I just place less importance on the rule of law, especially in complex cases like this where there are rarely any good and legal alternatives.

My wife and I went through all of the processes necessary for her to gain her citizenship.  It wasn't easy, but it had to be done to do things legally.  She works, pays all of the fees that illegals do not, and does her part for her new country.  I have little tolerance for those who do not.

Funny, my wife and I went through the same process. But I do have tolerance for those who did not or could not.

Maybe your image of an illegal immigrant might be someone who is trying to beat the system and avoid paying for the process or avoid waiting for it to finish. My image of an illegal immigrant is someone who is desperate to find a better life and sees an opportunity that is only available through illegal immigration, and who is more than willing to work and pay to earn the benefits. I'm sure both people exist, and I can't say for certain which is more typical. But I think my image is common and at the very least the type of immigrant I'd focus on helping.

I don't want them gone.  I want them legal in a fair and reasonable way.   By fair and reasonable, I mean it needs to be attainable while remaining just to the millions that have also completed the process. 

I absolutely agree with this. Which is why my first focus would be on updating the laws to provide better avenues for immigrants to enter the country. The current legal possibilities are lacking.

[ober]

If they came here illegally they need to leave, period. Do it the right way and if that is hard well then tough luck that is how the coin falls.

you're such a moron sometimes RoD 

what if they are in the US illegal, but do pay taxes, raise families, and are contributors to the overall well being of the society? What if they have kids that were born here? would you make them leave to?

Immigrants, even the illegal ones!, make this country go 'round, my friend. Your solution is impractical, stupid, and impossible to execute. There needs to be a fair, legal, and attainable path to citizenship for everyone.

+1

[ober]

I want to deport rod

+5

[Mike]

Knuck:  What do you do with children who were brought into the country illegally, grew up here, and are trying to be productive members of society?  Are they responsible for the actions of their parents?  Did they choose to be here illegally?  If you are going to deport them, where are you going to send them?

[Steve]

If they came here illegally they need to leave, period. Do it the right way and if that is hard well then tough luck that is how the coin falls.

you're such a moron sometimes RoD 

what if they are in the US illegal, but do pay taxes, raise families, and are contributors to the overall well being of the society? What if they have kids that were born here? would you make them leave to?

Immigrants, even the illegal ones!, make this country go 'round, my friend. Your solution is impractical, stupid, and impossible to execute. There needs to be a fair, legal, and attainable path to citizenship for everyone.

+1

Why? Why am I wrong? The citizens, the Americans of this country need to come first and the laws of our country need to be respected and enforced. Like I said the system is broken, but that is not an excuse to break our laws.

[KnuckleBuckett]

Knuck:  What do you do with children who were brought into the country illegally, grew up here, and are trying to be productive members of society?  Are they responsible for the actions of their parents?  Did they choose to be here illegally?  If you are going to deport them, where are you going to send them?

Are you not listening?  I told you I don't want them gone.  Read up.  I am not pulling a Steve here.  His answer is too binary to a situation that cannot be solved that way.