Author Topic: To kneel or not to kneel  (Read 567 times)

ober

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To kneel or not to kneel
« on: September 26, 2017, 09:01:01 AM »
I have to say something here because otherwise I'll lose my shit on the stupid people that I see posting dumb shit on Facebook.  When are people going to start to educate themselves on issues instead of assuming reasons for why people are kneeling or staying in the locker room during the national anthem?  Do they realize how stupid they look when they cry 'lack of patriotism' when it's the exact opposite of that?  Why are none of these rednecks saying anything about the vulgar things the president is saying?  Why does no one care what that pompous idiot does?


I really hope some of you feel the same way as me and I think I know most of you well enough to know that you would.

jkim

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2017, 01:19:49 PM »
I have many feelings, mostly centered around when and how it became so difficult to have the decency to respect others. I'm so tired of news.
definitely bas

charlie

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 04:56:20 PM »
I have many, many thoughts...

ober

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 05:01:08 PM »
Oh come on guys.  Don't wuss out on me here.  Let's get into it.

charlie

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 05:13:17 PM »
Most recently I've been thinking about how supporters of Kaepernick and the kneeling athletes never seem to address the fact that their method of protest is actually offensive to a lot of people. They say things like, "it's not meant to disrespect the military or veterans or the U.S." or "standing up for freedom and equality is patriotism". Well, yeah, but it's also important to acknowledge how your actions effect others who think differently from you.

I mean, if you intentionally* choose a method of protest that is offensive for reasons that are tangential to your cause, you should not be surprised when there is outrage that ignores your cause.

charlie

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 05:15:46 PM »
* I put a footnote on "intentionally" because this method of protest was in a lot of ways a product of happenstance rather than pure intention. As a 49ers fan I've been following this literally from day one. If it had been thought through from the beginning it might have turned out differently, and a lot of other factors shaped the way events unfolded.

ober

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 05:25:02 PM »
Can you please tell me why it is offensive to not stand during the anthem?  I could understand it if they were standing on a flag or desecrating a flag or some other patriotic object in some way. 

Or maybe let's ask this question: how would you suggest they protest?  Is it purely because they're doing it during the presentation of the country's song (which is also completely random that we play it at the beginning of only specific events)?  Is it just because they don't stand at attention with their hand over their heart?  What if they leave their helmet/hat on?  Is that offensive?

To the best of my knowledge, how one acts during the singing of the anthem is purely based on how others around you act.  I was never 'taught' how to act during the playing of the song.  I have, on the other hand, been taught how to properly handle and fold a flag.  And a lot of the people upset about this stuff are the same people that have no problem wearing or otherwise desecrating the flag in numerous other ways.

charlie

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 05:54:52 PM »
It's hard for me to answer that, because I don't consider the flag or the national anthem to be sacred and I'm not offended in the slightest by people who protest during the anthem or wear the flag or anything in between.

But I also know that many folks view things differently. And I think it's important to at least acknowledge their values and what they consider to be sacred.

The first analogy I thought of is when people draw Mohammad. Do they have a right to do that if they want? Sure. Should they be aware that doing so is offense to many Muslims? Absolutely.

Or perhaps if you're Christian, and you're attending a monthly BBQ with other Christians. Traditionally at this BBQ people say grace before anybody starts eating, and it's important to many of the attendees. If you make a point to eat something before they do that as some sign of protest, maybe you have that right. But should you not also be considering that doing so offends them? Is, "it doesn't bother me, that's not how I practice my faith" a reasonable response to their complaints?

charlie

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 06:36:50 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I think most of the arguments against the protest are baseless or ill-informed. I also absolutely support the cause behind the protests. So I basically feel the same way that you do.

But that's kinda boring. ;) Also, after over a year of feeling that way I'm trying to look at it from another angle.

Mike

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2017, 09:58:58 AM »
My stance:  How great must your life be that whether some football player(s) are standing or kneeling during the anthem is something you worry about.

Ok, now a more answer answer:  I DO NOT GIVE A FUCK.  Silently kneeling is still a respectful display during the anthem.  It is not an inherently disruptive act.

Honestly, the anthem during sporting events is a bit of overdone patriotism anyways.  AFAIK we are the only country that does this.

Lastly: I also don't say the pledge of allegiance and think it is fucking stupid.  I showed my allegiance during my oath of enlistment.

ober

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2017, 10:32:25 AM »
@charlie - I had a similar conversation with my wife the other night.  Her point was, how can you determine what offends someone else?  And I get that.  Different things offend different people.  I get why people are offended by team symbols like the Indian's 'wahoo' or the Redskins name or the drawing of Mohammed or literally 1000 other things.  I still haven't seen an explanation of exactly why this protest is truly offensive to them.

My main problem is that most of these people do not understand the issue at hand.  They focus on the act of the protest instead of why it is being done.  It is the same with other issues like Black Lives Matter or even Feminism.  I've seen people say 'I cannot be a feminist because I believe men and women should be equal'.  THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT OF FEMINISM!!  UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE!

@Mike - I don't spend a lot of time thinking about this.  I guess I'm just venting at what I see as a lot of general ignorance in our society as of late.  I agree with your other points.

charlie

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Re: To kneel or not to kneel
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2017, 11:53:10 AM »
Yeah, ober. Of course I agree with all that. I guess I've been engrossed in this issue so long I've transitioned to later stages of handling it.

And really, it's my complete annoyance at people being outraged about the issues without much understanding of them that has made me want to make sure I'm trying to understand their point of view.