Poll

Select your preferred candidate(s) for U.S. President

Donald Trump
1 (4.8%)
Some other Republican
1 (4.8%)
Third Party
1 (4.8%)
Joe Biden
1 (4.8%)
Elizabeth Warren
5 (23.8%)
Bernie Sanders
1 (4.8%)
Pete Buttigieg
2 (9.5%)
Kamala Harris
2 (9.5%)
Andrew Yang
1 (4.8%)
Some other Dem candidate (e.g. Klobuchar, Booker, Castro, etc)
3 (14.3%)
Some other Dem not yet in the race (e.g. Clinton, Bloomberg, Abrams, etc)
0 (0%)
A literal pile of rotting meat
2 (9.5%)
Jake/Pence 2020
1 (4.8%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closes: November 03, 2020, 02:48:43 PM

Author Topic: Election 2020  (Read 1213 times)

charlie

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2019, 06:24:09 PM »
That video (watched the 2nd one) makes me laugh a little... the tone makes it sound like it's trying to emphasize the downside of Canadian Healthcare, but then it says stuff like:


53% of Canadians say they couldn't get care within 48 hours when they needed it!!!
(42% of Americans said the same)

18% of Canadians say they waited 4 months for elective surgery! 18%!!! Elective!!!

Canadians complain of long wait times!
(Some provinces have shorter waiting times than the United States.)

Canadians spend $670 per capita on retail prescription drugs!
(Americans spend $1000 per capita on retail prescription drugs.)

94% of Canadians are proud of their health care system.

Shit, if we could get all that here and also provide universal coverage and prevent people from going bankrupt due to medical bills I'd be all over it.


this type of shit irks me as well

https://reason.com/2019/11/20/democrats-overwhelmingly-vote-to-give-trumps-people-more-spying-power/


Yeah, libertarian-leaners who hate the Patriot Act have a lot to be mad at from both parties.


Maybe I'm just inferring incorrectly but I read these posts from you Jake as critiques of liberal policy positions. But they're really not at all...

KnuckleBuckett

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2019, 06:27:48 AM »
Bah.  Canada has a population the size of a couple of US States and they can't control their health care system.  The very first thing the US needs to STOP doing is comparing ourselves to all of these other sate sized, in population, countries.  These problems do not scale well.  Healthcare is only one of them.

We ALREADY have socialized healthcare in Medicare-Medicaid and it is a mess.  I can't even imagine forcing that on all of our health care.  I agree that there are huge issues.  Huge.  I am telling you forcing full socialized healthcare in the Sates would be a train wreck.  Another thing.  Healthcare is not a right.  It is a privilege.  Enforcing it would be illegal, and we don't even enforce the rights we have we erode them.

I don't have a solution, I doubt that there is a pat solution.  This is an issue with so many guilty parties that it boggles the mind.  Taking another 20% of my income to "fix" this is not a viable solution.

ober

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2019, 08:32:59 AM »
Whoa whoa whoa.  Healthcare is a privilege?  Really?  We shouldn't take care of the people in our society?  People should just fend for themselves in all cases?  I do NOT agree with that at all.

Also, Medicare isn't perfect but my in-laws are quite happy with it.  I've talked to other people on it and they have no issues with it.  YMMV of course but if that's the model that would be available to the rest of it, it doesn't seem all that terrible.

I don't disagree that we're much larger than some of the countries that have this.  That doesn't mean it cannot scale well.  That's a very black and white line of thinking.

RobR

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2019, 09:16:37 AM »
Another thing.  Healthcare is not a right.  It is a privilege.

Can't say how much I disagree with this...

charlie

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #109 on: November 22, 2019, 11:47:34 AM »
Taking another 20% of my income to "fix" this is not a viable solution.

Honestly curious... was this meant to be hyperbole or do you think that's how much a health care overhaul would affect people's incomes?

micah

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #110 on: November 22, 2019, 12:21:10 PM »
Taking another 20% of my income to "fix" this is not a viable solution.

Honestly curious... was this meant to be hyperbole or do you think that's how much a health care overhaul would affect people's incomes?

for what it's worth, 2.9% of pay currently goes directly to medicare, which is used by 15% of the population.  Extrapolating that out, is pretty close to 20% if everyone was on medicare. Obviously economies of scale and other factors will heavily influence that final number; but it's not completely insane; Sweeden's top tax rate is 56.6% (for all taxes) for those with an income as low as $85k USD.  So.... yeah, that's  lot of taxes to let someone else run your life.
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charlie

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #111 on: November 22, 2019, 01:47:56 PM »
I'm not sure that makes sense to look at it that way, though.

There are different ways to pay for universal coverage, none proposed so far come close to adding an additional 20% tax on anybody.

But more importantly, in the scenario where everybody went on medicare, you would be on medicare also and would no longer be paying thousands of dollars a year in medical costs. Between the amount I pay in premiums and copays and the amount my employer pays, that's getting pretty close to 20% of my income. That's means my tax rate would have to increase to by 30-40% for me to actually have to have an additional 20% of my income go to solving this problem.

KnuckleBuckett

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #112 on: November 22, 2019, 06:55:05 PM »
Ben.  Just because something might or might not be a good idea morally or ethically does not make it a right.  You might want it to be, but read the Constitution and Bill of Rights, it isn't in there.

Yes. The healthcare system here has major issues. I think we agree on this.  My wife has made a career in this system.  I get it.  Higher taxes aren't the way to remedy these issues.  We in the US already spend enough on healthcare.  Maybe doing a better job with the money already apportioned for this might be a place to start.  Get the damned money to the people that need it.  Start here. 

ethic

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #113 on: November 23, 2019, 05:30:29 AM »
It isn't in there because healthcare didn't exist 250 years ago.
I watch you...
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KnuckleBuckett

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #114 on: November 23, 2019, 08:03:10 AM »
We have had several amendments in "modern" times.  The most recent in the 90s.

Mike

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #115 on: November 23, 2019, 11:20:39 AM »
We have had several amendments in "modern" times.  The most recent in the 90s.
The one ratified in 1992 was submitted to the states was submitted in 1789 and had to do with delaying congressional salary changes.  Yeah, the paragon of modern issues.

But let's look at what else has been ratified in the last 50 years:
* Lowers the voting age to 18 (26th - 1971)

Oh jeez, how about the last 100
* Presidential succession (25th - 1967)
* Prohibits poll taxes (24th - 1962)
* Grants DC electors (23rd - 1961)
* Term limits for president (22nd - 1951)
* Repeals 18th amendment (21st - 1933)
* Changes start date for congress and president (20th - 1933)
* Women's right to vote (19th - 1920)
* Alcohol bad (18th - 1919)

Really, looking at the list of amendments most of the after the initial 10 don't deal with new issues but instead just tweak the existing rules.

Quote
You might want it to be, but read the Constitution and Bill of Rights, it isn't in there.

You may want to read the 9th amendment:
> The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

So, just because it isn't in the Constitution doesn't mean it isn't a right.

micah

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2019, 04:30:29 PM »
The only inalienable rights we have are the God-given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The other "rights" in the constitution are limits on government affording us Freedom; the amendments are not granting the people any new privileges that we would not already have if we were not governed.

The rights to free speech, or to assemble or protest, or petition congress, or carry a gun, or not have your property taken or your home searched without cause, are not free gifts granted by government that you would otherwise not have were there no government; instead, they are freedom from government.  They are laws to prevent oppression.   "Free healthcare" or "Free college" are NOT RIGHTS. 
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 04:50:26 PM by micah »
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Mike

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2019, 08:16:44 PM »
I would think that the right to life implies the ability to seek medical aid.  And, if the ability to seek that aid is curtailed by going into financial ruin then we are not supporting that right nor the right of liberty.

I find it morally and ethically reprehensible that the collective response is "don't be poor".

micah

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2019, 09:03:11 PM »
I would think that the right to life implies the ability to seek medical aid.  And, if the ability to seek that aid is curtailed by going into financial ruin then we are not supporting that right nor the right of liberty.

I find it morally and ethically reprehensible that the collective response is "don't be poor".

Yes, the right to life and liberty completely means you have the ability to seek medical aid.  And if the government was going to make a law that said only certain people could seek medical help, or that only some medical procedures could be allowed (yes, that's an abortion concession I'm making) then that WOULD be a violation of our rights.  I also agree 100% that if cost or some other factor curtails the ability to seek aid that it totally sucks.  But we (this group) were talking about rights guaranteed by the constitution and my point was that the bill of rights is there to stop the government from interfering in freedom.   Just like you can't yell fire in a theater or carry a gun at Six Flags; the bill of rights does not guarantee or defend your personal rights from anyone other than the government.
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charlie

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Re: Election 2020
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2019, 11:00:18 PM »
I'm with Knuck and Micah on the rights vs privilege thing. I don't consider healthcare a right.